> I would prefer we not track gender at all.
why not for a wiki like Wikipedia?
and, in your opinion, what exactly makes this wiki "a ton harder" to deal
with?
thanks,
Claudia
---------- Original Message -----------
From:Sam Katz <smk...@gmail.com>
To:Research into Wikimedia content and communities <wiki-research-
l...@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent:Fri, 6 Mar 2015 17:29:22 -0600
Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender stats Re: Fwd:
[Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
> It seems to me you are extrapolating from
> insufficient data. identity and presentation are
> not the same thing, but I guess the question in
> this context is "what is presentation in an online
> setting?" "how is gender shown in an online setting?"
>
> That's pretty easy in one sense, but then you have
> "in a wiki like wikipedia" and it's a ton harder.
>
> I would prefer we not track gender at all.
>
> --Sam
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 5:16 PM,
> <koltzenb...@w4w.net> wrote:
> > yes, I agree the point you raise is interesting
> >
> > in attacks, however, the perceived gender is probably more
> > important than how the attacked user might identify (or not)
> >
> > and again, this might be one of the reasons why people
> > identifying as female* tend to refrain from joining surveys
> > and simply prefer not to be forced to say "who" they "are" -
> > just like many others who do not identify as (e.g.,
> > heterosexual) males feel that online spaces get less safe if
> > they say anything about their gender/s or sexual
> > identity/identities... how come?
> >
> > sometimes I think: if only more contemporaries in hegemonic
> > positions would be willing to switch perspectives for a
> > minute or two, nonsensical statements like "less than 20%" -
> > posited as outcomes of "research" - could be done away with,
> > I guess
> >
> > as for another attempt at switching one's perspective, who
> > are those 80%? trans*, inter*, and male people? or fluid
> > identities, maybe?
> >
> > best, Claudia
> >
> > ---------- Original Message -----------
> > From:Sam Katz <smk...@gmail.com>
> > To:kerry.raym...@gmail.com, Research into Wikimedia content
> > and communities <wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Sent:Fri, 6 Mar 2015 16:57:58 -0600
> > Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender
> > stats Re: Fwd: [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
> >
> >> To those following:
> >> I think this is a valid question I am raising. The
> >> question of whether written communication has a
> >> different way of relating than oral, in the
> >> context of a wiki, which by definition is
> >> collaborative, tracks users but allows anonymous
> >> editing, is a valid question.
> >>
> >> Anonymity and pen names were first used often
> >> times by women.
> >>
> >> I will also note that in terms of interface biases,
> >> Facebook and other platforms (Acquia Commons)
> >> that use photos of their users as adornments, to
> >> show what users have posted do worse than
> >> wikipedia in terms of encouraging safety and
> >> courage ("be bold in editing") among their users.
> >>
> >> Clarifying what the question is in this thread is
> >> a good first step towards answering it. If I was
> >> confused, I stand corrected, but I believe this is
> >> an important discussion to have.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Kerry Raymond
> >> <kerry.raym...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Do you say that as a man or as a woman?
> >> >
> >> > As a woman, you are assumed to be male routinely in real
> > life and online.
> >> > Many people make no effort whatsoever, letters addressed
> > to "Dr Sir" etc.
> >> >
> >> > Has it got better over the years? Yes, in my real life,
> > it has got somewhat
> >> > better over the years. But getting involved in Wikipedia
> > and its discussions
> >> > about gender is like being back in 1970s. "Do we really
> > have a gender gap?"
> >> > "Does it matter if we have a gender gap?"
> >> >
> >> > Kerry
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: wiki-research-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > [mailto:wiki-research-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Sam Katz
> >> > Sent: Saturday, 7 March 2015 2:54 AM
> >> > To: Research into Wikimedia content and communities
> >> > Subject: Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender
> > stats Re: Fwd:
> >> > [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
> >> >
> >> > hey,
> >> >
> >> > I just want to note that I am not convinced that gender
> > expression
> >> > online or indeed expression in general is the same as it
> > is in real
> >> > space. Granted, this may be stylistically what you are
> > trying to
> >> > prove. But I just wanted to add my two cents, that
> > indeed it may not
> >> > have a gender bias directly if the structure does not
> > impose it.
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 9:08 AM, <koltzenb...@w4w.net>
> > wrote:
> >> >> Hi Frances,
> >> >>
> >> >> your assumption (an "unknown" user in a language where
> >> >> personal nouns are gendered will always display the
> >> >> masculine form) is correct for deWP, I just tested it
> > from a
> >> >> new dummy account.
> >> >>
> >> >> you might call it a truly sytemic bias, and especially so
> >> >> because community majority has not seen to changing that
> >> >> space into gender friendly space for all, it seems.
> >> >>
> >> >> so this adds another item of disharmony to my cautious note
> >> >> on gender stats
> >> >>
> >> >> best,
> >> >> Claudia
> >> >> ---------- Original Message -----------
> >> >> From:Frances Hocutt <fhoc...@wikimedia.org>
> >> >> To:Research into Wikimedia content and communities
> >> >> <wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >> >> Sent:Thu, 5 Mar 2015 16:43:04 -0800
> >> >> Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender
> >> >> stats Re: Fwd: [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Mark J. Nelson
> >> >>> <m...@anadrome.org> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Frances Hocutt <fhoc...@wikimedia.org> writes:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > > One change that could address the latter incentive is
> >> >> to change the
> >> >>> > > defaults on MediaWiki so that masculine grammatical
> >> >> gender is not the
> >> >>> > > default for new users. It could be randomly assigned,
> >> >> and then some men
> >> >>> > as
> >> >>> > > well as some women would have the incentive to set
> >> >> their gender
> >> >>> > preferences.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > That's how it currently works, according to the manual,
> >> >> with the default
> >> >>> > gender set to 'unknown':
> >> >>> >
> > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDefaultUserOptions
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > I'm not sure if that's a recent change, or what's in
> >> >> effect on
> >> >>> > Wikimedia's own wikis, though.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I'm aware that it defaults to "unknown". My
> >> >>> understanding--and please correct me if I'm wrong--
> >> >>> is that an "unknown" user in a language where
> >> >>> personal nouns are gendered will always display
> >> >>> the masculine form (i.e. Usuario for a user of
> >> >>> unknown gender on es.wp). So, a male user doesn't
> >> >>> need to change his gender in preferences in order
> >> >>> to be described accurately where a female user
> >> >>> would need to set her gender in order to be
> >> >>> described as "Usuaria". Hence, different
> >> >>> incentives, and ones that could be addressed with
> >> >>> different default behavior for an "unknown" user.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -Frances
> >> >> ------- End of Original Message -------
> >> >>
> >> >>
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