I'll agree that in general though it's good policy to allow linking on wikidata to redirect links. That way, if in the future someone thinks hatmaker merits a separate article from hatmaking (although I doubt it), the link to the wikidata item is already there. Without this functionality we risk duplication of wikidata items when redirects become articles in their own right, and a new wikidata item is made for it without knowing there's already a wikidata link for it (because there was no link to the redirect page).
I think Jane makes a great point though; Why don't we use transclusion for these kinds of issues? I.e. *have* a separate article about each band member, but then transclude that information into the band's article. This is more of a Wikipedia deletionist culture issue rather than a Wikidata issue though; I suspect you'll have trouble if you actually try to do this on en wiki, in cases where those people wouldn't be considered notable on their own. Andrew's points illustrate where this might be useful: take the case of the Attenborough brothers. There was some debate in the talk page over whether https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Attenborough was worth an entire article because he's mostly only famous because he has two rather famous brothers. Right now we could make a page "attenborough brothers", put onlyinclude tags around the intro to all three articles, and boom, article! This would somewhat ameliorate the problem Andrew was talking about with incomplete linkage across languages. I do see a fundamental culture conflict coming up between wikidata and wikipedia- wikidata incentives the creation of small articles with individual, discrete concepts, whereas wikipedia values articles of a certain length with synthesis. I think transclusion would be a great way to bridge the gap and add value to both. On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk> wrote: > Yes, biographies are a major example of where this is useful. There > are many cases where, for example, > > * Wikipedia has an article covering both a company and the founder(s) > of that company > * A Wikipedia article deals with a parent + child, or siblings, who > worked in the same field > * A Wikipedia article covers two unrelated people with the same name > who are often confused (it shouldn't happen often, but it does) > > The problem arises when, for example: > > * English has an article on Brother A and Brother B > * German has an article on Brother A only > * French has an article on "the brothers" + redirects > * Spanish has an article on "the brothers" *and* both A and B individually. > > What should happen here is that Wikidata has three entries: A, B, and > "brothers", with A and B marked as parts of the "brothers" concept. I > think we can all agree this is correct :-) > > But the way the interwikis work gets strange. From the English > article, you can only get to Spanish. From the English or German > articles, you can never get to the French one, even though it probably > contains what you need. If we could use redirects, you would be able > to get to French from any of the other languages. > > It's not perfect - but it's at least better than nothing... > > Andrew, > > > On 16 October 2014 11:45, Jan Dudík <jan.du...@gmail.com> wrote: >> There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of >> characters) or members of bands >> >> *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part >> of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]] >> is redirect. >> *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate >> article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article >> about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there >> is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y >> characters#X) >> *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but >> informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But >> when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language >> separate. With alowed redirects, I find it. >> >> JAnD >> >> 2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com>: >>> With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into large >>> articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link >>> methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles >>> are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff to >>> get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing >>> however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any reference >>> to the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list of >>> notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short). >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking". >>>> >>>> Why create a stub? Why require the duplication? >>>> >>>> Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, >>>> either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that is >>>> a >>>> decision for them. >>>> >>>> But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to >>>> find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in that >>>> language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article in >>>> its >>>> own right. >>>> >>>> -- James. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote: >>>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact >>>>> that >>>>> the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not >>>>> something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting >>>>> with >>>>> your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for >>>>> "hatmaker" on the English wikipedia. >>>>> Jane >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I >>>>>> am >>>>>> saying. >>>>>> >>>>>> To be clearer: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* >>>>>> not >>>>>> the item. >>>>>> * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a >>>>>> featured article in some language, or any other badge. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not exist" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently. >>>>>> >>>>>> * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article >>>>>> on >>>>>> it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking >>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375 >>>>>> >>>>>> * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article >>>>>> on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649 >>>>>> >>>>>> The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an >>>>>> occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship. >>>>>> >>>>>> It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label to >>>>>> the >>>>>> "Hatmaker" item. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker". >>>>>> >>>>>> What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no >>>>>> with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for >>>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>>> >>>>>> What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, >>>>>> linking >>>>>> to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the >>>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>>> item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To give another example: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell, >>>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell >>>>>> which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver. >>>>>> (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for >>>>>> tests) >>>>>> >>>>>> On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead >>>>>> there >>>>>> is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell&; >>>>>> redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell >>>>>> family: >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell >>>>>> >>>>>> Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this >>>>>> redirect. >>>>>> >>>>>> That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on >>>>>> :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> All best, >>>>>> >>>>>> James. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hoi, >>>>>>> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a >>>>>>> good >>>>>>> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia >>>>>>> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation >>>>>>> page.. >>>>>>> We do support them. They are not redirects. >>>>>>> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS? >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> GerardM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Creating sitelinks to redirects: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to >>>>>>>> * go to client wiki, >>>>>>>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect >>>>>>>> * add a sitelink >>>>>>>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical >>>>>>>> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a >>>>>>>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg >>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>> recently at >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_ >>>>>>>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to >>>>>>>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly >>>>>>>> roundabout process above). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are >>>>>>>> useful, >>>>>>>> and should be created. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to confirm >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> practice: >>>>>>>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the >>>>>>>> sitelink >>>>>>>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article. >>>>>>>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item as >>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis >>>>>>>> en >>>>>>>> masse, and site-linking them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where wiki >>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen >>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the >>>>>>>> profession >>>>>>>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking'). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to keeping a >>>>>>>> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- James. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nope >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola <smole...@eunet.rs> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> "Prunus" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> old >>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>> are you not? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > > > -- > - Andrew Gray > andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
