Hoi,
What has that to do with Wikidata ?
Thanks,
GerardM
On 16 October 2014 13:58, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> You can make an *item* on Wikidata, no problem.
>
> But if you try to make a corresponding *article* on en-wiki, people will
> fold it into a list.
>
> So it would be good for the *item* on Wikidata to point to the *redirect*
> that is permitted on en-wiki.
>
> -- James.
>
>
>
> On 16/10/2014 12:54, Jane Darnell wrote:
>
>> I don't understand why you can't make an item for each character or each
>> person in a band. As long as you have a valid reference (IMDb? Book? out
>> of
>> my league here) you can make an item for anything
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jan Dudík <jan.du...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of
>>> characters) or members of bands
>>>
>>> *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part
>>> of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]]
>>> is redirect.
>>> *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate
>>> article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article
>>> about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there
>>> is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y
>>> characters#X)
>>> *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but
>>> informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But
>>> when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language
>>> separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.
>>>
>>> JAnD
>>>
>>> 2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into
>>>>
>>> large
>>>
>>>> articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link
>>>> methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia
>>>> articles
>>>> are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff
>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing
>>>> however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any
>>>>
>>> reference
>>>
>>>> to the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>> notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking".
>>>>>
>>>>> Why create a stub? Why require the duplication?
>>>>>
>>>>> Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
>>>>> either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that
>>>>>
>>>> is a
>>>
>>>> decision for them.
>>>>>
>>>>> But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
>>>>> find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in
>>>>>
>>>> that
>>>
>>>> language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article
>>>>>
>>>> in its
>>>
>>>> own right.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- James.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> James,
>>>>>> I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not
>>>>>> something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
>>>>>> "hatmaker" on the English wikipedia.
>>>>>> Jane
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk>
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>
>>>> am
>>>>>>> saying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be clearer:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the
>>>>>>> *sitelink*
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> the item.
>>>>>>> * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a
>>>>>>> featured article in some language, or any other badge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> exist"
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an
>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
>>>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article
>>>>>>> on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/
>>>>>>> Q18199649
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an
>>>>>>> occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> "Hatmaker" item.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no
>>>>>>> with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> for
>>>
>>>> "Hatmaking"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
>>>>>>> linking
>>>>>>> to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the
>>>>>>> "Hatmaking"
>>>>>>> item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To give another example:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
>>>>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
>>>>>>> which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
>>>>>>> (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for
>>>>>>> tests)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> is a redirect,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell&;
>>>
>>>> redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell
>>>>>>> family:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#
>>> Daniel_Havell
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
>>>>>>> redirect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
>>>>>>> :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking
>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> James.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>>> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a
>>>
>>>> good
>>>>>>>> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wikipedia
>>>
>>>> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> disambiguation
>>>
>>>> page..
>>>>>>>> We do support them. They are not redirects.
>>>>>>>> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name,
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> GerardM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Creating sitelinks to redirects:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
>>>>>>>>> * go to client wiki,
>>>>>>>>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
>>>>>>>>> * add a sitelink
>>>>>>>>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> technical
>>>
>>>> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a
>>>>>>>>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg
>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>> recently at
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
>>>>>>>>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly
>>>>>>>>> roundabout process above).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are
>>>>>>>>> useful,
>>>>>>>>> and should be created.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> confirm
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> practice:
>>>>>>>>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the
>>>>>>>>> sitelink
>>>>>>>>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article.
>>>>>>>>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as
>>>
>>>> its
>>>>>>>>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client
>>>>>>>>> wikis
>>>>>>>>> en
>>>>>>>>> masse, and site-linking them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wiki
>>>
>>>> A
>>>>>>>>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content
>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen
>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the
>>>>>>>>> profession
>>>>>>>>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking').
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> keeping a
>>>
>>>> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- James.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> nope
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola <
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> smole...@eunet.rs>
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a
>>>>>>>>>>>> redirect
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Prunus"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a
>>>>>>>>>>> redirect
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>>>>>> way,
>>>>>>>>>>> are you not?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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