Sorry I misinterpreted you. I agree that we need a separate wikidata item for each concept (anything which can be described using wikidata statements) even if the concept is only in a shared or bundled wikipedia article.
Joe On 16 Oct 2014 15:35, "Jane Darnell" <jane...@gmail.com> wrote: > Joe, > That's actually not what I said. What I said was that we should explode > all bundled concepts on Wikipedia into items on Wikidata. I did not say > that we should do anything at all on Wikipedia. I am perfectly capable of > keeping to the point on a Wikidata mailing list, and I believe that the > "explosion of data" as I envision it on Wikidata would be helped by using > Wiktionary. > Jane > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Joe Filceolaire <filceola...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Jane >> >> I disagree. >> >> Sitelinks to wikipedia redirects are useful because they help one >> wikipedia get useful links to other wikipedias even where the structure of >> the wikipedias is different, without having to force the various wikipedias >> to follow the same structure. >> >> Your comment that wikipedias should change their policies and have one >> concept per article may be correct but it is a comment on wikipedia policy >> and should be addressed to the wikipedias. This list is for wikidata. >> >> Note that we also have wikidata redirects. These should be created >> whenever we merge two wikidata items so that external links to the 'merged' >> item will automagically link to the combined item so that wikidata urls are >> stable and persistent. >> >> Joe >> >> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Redirects are indeed cheap on Wikipedia, and I have created tons of them >>> on the English Wikipedia. I am a big fan of redirects, but only on >>> Wikipedia. Redirects are not useful for Wikidatans or for Wikipedians who >>> become Wikidatans. Period. >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:57 PM, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> Redirects are cheap. >>>> >>>> On en-wiki the creation of new redirects is positively encouraged. >>>> >>>> There is also a category on en-wiki, "Redirects with possibilities" for >>>> redirects that have the potential to be built into stand-alone articles. >>>> >>>> I would have thought the (possibly automated) creation of large numbers >>>> of redirects similarly on other language wikis would be something that >>>> might be rather welcome. >>>> >>>> Remember also that it's not changing the item structure on Wikidata, >>>> just what it can point to on the client wikis. >>>> >>>> -- James. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16/10/2014 13:44, P. Blissenbach wrote: >>>> >>>>> While I agree with the idea of linking between languages >>>>> including links to related topics, I am a bit hesitant to use >>>>> Wikidata for it now and in the suggested fashion. Rather let us >>>>> try to find a more generalized approach which not only serves >>>>> Wikipedias but all parties interested in finding related topics. >>>>> Then a search in WP can, in addition to its current hits, show >>>>> a list of "related topics" which are determined semantically >>>>> rather then by spelling. >>>>> >>>>> Also I doubt that WP communties will tolerate the abundance of >>>>> redirects that are likely going to be necessary if you really make >>>>> all the ones that are possibly useful. >>>>> >>>>> Purodha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "James Heald" <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> writes: >>>>> >>>>>> We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking". >>>>>> >>>>>> Why create a stub? Why require the duplication? >>>>>> >>>>>> Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, >>>>>> either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- >>>>>> that >>>>>> is a decision for them. >>>>>> >>>>>> But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another >>>>>> to >>>>>> find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in >>>>>> that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate >>>>>> article in its own right. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- James. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> James, >>>>>>> I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The >>>>>>> fact that >>>>>>> the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not >>>>>>> something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are >>>>>>> wasting with >>>>>>> your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for >>>>>>> "hatmaker" on the English wikipedia. >>>>>>> Jane >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood >>>>>>>> what I am >>>>>>>> saying. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To be clearer: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the >>>>>>>> *sitelink* not >>>>>>>> the item. >>>>>>>> * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> featured article in some language, or any other badge. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not >>>>>>>> exist" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an >>>>>>>> article on >>>>>>>> it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking >>>>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an >>>>>>>> article >>>>>>>> on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/ >>>>>>>> Q18199649 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an >>>>>>>> occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label >>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> "Hatmaker" item. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no >>>>>>>> with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: >>>>>>>> defined for >>>>>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, >>>>>>>> linking >>>>>>>> to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the >>>>>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>>>>> item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To give another example: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell, >>>>>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell >>>>>>>> which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the >>>>>>>> engraver. >>>>>>>> (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test >>>>>>>> for tests) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. >>>>>>>> Instead there >>>>>>>> is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/ >>>>>>>> index.php?title=Daniel_Havell& >>>>>>>> redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell >>>>>>>> family: >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family# >>>>>>>> Daniel_Havell >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this >>>>>>>> redirect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking >>>>>>>> about. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hoi, >>>>>>>>> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused >>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly >>>>>>>>> Wikipedia >>>>>>>>> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an >>>>>>>>> disambiguation >>>>>>>>> page.. >>>>>>>>> We do support them. They are not redirects. >>>>>>>>> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, >>>>>>>>> it only >>>>>>>>> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS? >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> GerardM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Creating sitelinks to redirects: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to >>>>>>>>>> * go to client wiki, >>>>>>>>>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect >>>>>>>>>> * add a sitelink >>>>>>>>>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming >>>>>>>>>> technical >>>>>>>>>> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, >>>>>>>>>> eg most >>>>>>>>>> recently at >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_ >>>>>>>>>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly >>>>>>>>>> roundabout process above). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once >>>>>>>>>> and for >>>>>>>>>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are >>>>>>>>>> useful, >>>>>>>>>> and should be created. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to >>>>>>>>>> confirm the >>>>>>>>>> practice: >>>>>>>>>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the >>>>>>>>>> sitelink >>>>>>>>>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article. >>>>>>>>>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another >>>>>>>>>> item as its >>>>>>>>>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client >>>>>>>>>> wikis en >>>>>>>>>> masse, and site-linking them. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where >>>>>>>>>> wiki A >>>>>>>>>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content >>>>>>>>>> all in >>>>>>>>>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen >>>>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the >>>>>>>>>> profession >>>>>>>>>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking'). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to >>>>>>>>>> keeping a >>>>>>>>>> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers >>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- James. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nope >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola < >>>>>>>>>>> smole...@eunet.rs> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a >>>>>>>>>>>> redirect, and the >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a >>>>>>>>>>>>> redirect to >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Prunus" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a >>>>>>>>>>>> redirect the >>>>>>>>>>>> old >>>>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>>>> are you not? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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