Anthony,
My remarks below are entirely logical - and that's the weakness in them in
trying to define or denote Buddha Nature. I'm trying, as all who write or even
talk about zen, to put a round peg (zen) into a square hold (logic). There's
not a perfect match there although there is some overlap. (It's actually not
even a 'round' peg; it's more like an 'amorphous blob'.)
The overlap in this case is that in English the convention is to use an intial
lower case letter for a general term ("common noun: a noun that denotes any or
all members of a class" - www.thefreedictionary.com); whereas an initial upper
case letter is used for a specific term ("proper noun: a noun that denotes a
particular thing" - www.thefreedictionary.com).
Because I opine (see, I'm still TRYING to good)that Buddha Nature is one
specific thing, I capitalize it. If you think that each person has 'one's own
nature' and it's just a general term for a class of things, then you should
rightfully leave it uncapitalized.
It's for the same reason that when I write 'Zen', with an upper-case 'Z' I am
referring specifically to 'Zen Buddhism'. When I write 'zen' with a lower-case
'z' I am referring to the general, non-specific, non-Buddhist, non-specific
class of 'zen'.
But I think you already know that.
...and curiously (at least for me) grammar (which the paragraphs above are a
good example) is also an attempt to put a round peg (language - an evolved not
engineered system) into a square, logical hole (grammer - an attempt to
retro-engineer language into a series of rules). As you know in all languages
there are MANY non-conforming exceptions that cannot be accomodated with a
nice, neat set of rules. Zen (both 'Zen' and 'zen') is like that too.
...Bill!
...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Â
> You say, 'It's should be translated as just 'original nature' or perhaps
> 'Original Nature' to show it is a particular thing, not a general thing. It's
> the same 'orginal nature' for everyone.
> '
> Â
> Is there any logic in your remarks?
> Â
> Anthony
>
> --- On Thu, 26/5/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thursday, 26 May, 2011, 9:10 AM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Siska,
>
> On one level both of the terms 'kensho' and 'satori' do mean 'seeing into
> one's own nature'. The difference being 'kensho' is a brief, fleeting glimpse
> and 'satori' is a deeper and longer lasting awareness, but both terms refer
> to the same thing.
>
> On another level 'seeing into one's own nature' is a somewhat clumsy
> translation. It' not really 'one's own nature' - as in 'your individual
> nature'. The term 'one's own nature' in English could be interpreted as being
> a different nature for each individual - like 'one's own calling' or 'one's
> own fate'. It's should be translated as just 'original nature' or perhaps
> 'Original Nature' to show it is a particular thing, not a general thing. It's
> the same 'orginal nature' for everyone.
>
> This concept is related to the confusion that exists about the term 'Buddha'.
> It is a singlular term. There are not multiple 'buddhas', there is only one.
> Translations like 'Guatama was a buddha' should really be 'Guatama is
> Buddha'. There is only one and past and future tenses don't apply. Seeing
> into (experiencing/having awareness of) the singlular and universally shared
> Buddha Nature is kensho - is satori.
>
> ...and of course as needs be stated since I am now the Kinder and Gentler
> Bill!, this is all my opinion.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bill,
> >
> > The literal meaning of kensho (or jian xing in chinese) is not first
> > glimpse. If it is referred to as first glimpse, then perhaps it is
> > experienced only once.
> >
> > Literal meaning of jian xing, as Anthony and Ed have explained to me, is
> > seeing one's own nature. Some other descriptions say it happens very
> > quickly and it is very clear. The experience of insight or nyana (nana) is
> > where one sees the three characteristics of impermanence, sufferings and
> > no-sef by experience. It is also very clear when it happens. That is why I
> > concluded these two are same experience, referred to differently in
> > different traditions. But I'm not sure.
> >
> > I wonder if Daniel is still around, I hope he is. Am I the only one, apart
> > from Daniel, in this forum who has practised Theravada meditation before?
> >
> > Siska
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@>
> > Sender: [email protected]
> > Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:39:41
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> >
> > Siska,
> >
> > I was told 'kensho' meant 'first glimpse' or 'inital breakthrough'. It does
> > imply it is a one-time thing since it uses the adjectives 'first' and
> > 'initial'. As I've said below 'kensho' is also not permanent although the
> > memory of 'kensho' is pretty persistant. I think it is a term mainly used
> > in Japanese Renzai Zen Buddhism because their teaching techniques, such as
> > koan study, are very aggressive (sudden enlighenment) and calibrated to
> > push the student to experience Buddha Nature quickly. For that reason the
> > first experience is somewhat shallow and fleeting. After that there is a
> > long period of subsequent teachings (other types of koans) that help the
> > student cultivate and integrate the experience of Buddha Nature into their
> > everyday life.
> >
> > This can be contrasted with Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism whose teaching
> > techniques are more subtle (gradual enlighenment) and geared to a longer
> > initial period of prepartation so that when Buddha Nature is finally
> > experienced the student is much better prepared.
> >
> > I don't know where I heard the following analogy, but it is:
> >
> > 'If enlightenment can be likened to being wet, Soto zen is like strolling
> > aroung in a light mist for a long period of time before you suddenly
> > realize you are soaking wet. Renzai zen is like being suddenly pushed into
> > a swimming pool! You're wet, but you don't immediately know exactly what
> > happened.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Bill,
> > >
> > > The literal meaning of kensho is not 'first glimpse'. When translated as
> > > first glimpse, does it mean that one can only experience kensho once?
> > >
> > > Now trouble in understanding these two terms is that I've never attended
> > > any zen meditation retreat before. So I've never had any meditative
> > > experience where afterwards a certain teacher advise me that that is
> > > kensho. Whatever I think I know about kensho is only based on other
> > > people's descriptions. And these descriptions seem to be similar to an
> > > experience referred to as nyana/nana (insight) in Theravada meditation
> > > retreat.
> > >
> > > Ed might have good links to describe what nyana/nana is for your
> > > comparison ;-)
> > >
> > > When I'm fortunate enough to attend zen retreat and experience kensho,
> > > I'll let you know whether these two are the same :-)
> > >
> > > Siska
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@>
> > > Sender: [email protected]
> > > Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:17:33
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> > >
> > > Siska,
> > >
> > > The term 'kensho' is Japanese term and is used in Japanese Zen Buddism.
> > > It was used by teachers from both the Renzai and Soto schools in the
> > > zendo where I received instruction.
> > >
> > > I was told that 'kensho' means 'first glimpse'. That might not be the
> > > actual Japanese:English translations, but that's what I was told. It
> > > refers to an event in which a student's (or anyone else) initially gains
> > > awareness of Buddha Nature. It implies an awareness that is of short
> > > duration and fades quickly over time.
> > >
> > > This term can be compared with 'satori' which I was told means 'great
> > > enlightenment'. 'Satori' is an event that marks an awareness of Buddha
> > > Nature is very deep and long-lasting.
> > >
> > > This is my understanding of these two terms.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Ed,
> > > >
> > > > I still cannot figure out clearly what kensho actually is, but from the
> > > > descriptions, it looks like kensho is very similar to nyana (insight)
> > > > experience as in Mahasi tradition in Theravada.
> > > >
> > > > Daniel, looking forward to your opinion (or correction).
> > > >
> > > > Siska
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "ED" <seacrofter001@>
> > > > Sender: [email protected]
> > > > Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:45:08
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > > Subject: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello All,
> > > >
> > > > Definitions: Zen = Zen Buddhism; zen = Zen minus the Buddhism
> > > >
> > > > The Noble Eightfold Path is sometimes divided into three basic
> > > > categories as follows:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I. Wisdom (Sanskrit: prajna, Pali: panna)
> > > >
> > > > 1. Right understanding
> > > >
> > > > 2. Right intention
> > > >
> > > > II. Ethical conduct (Sanskrit and Pali: sila)
> > > >
> > > > 3. Right speech
> > > >
> > > > 4. Right action
> > > >
> > > > 5. Right livelihood
> > > >
> > > > III. Concentration (Sanskrit and Pali: samadhi)
> > > >
> > > > 6. Right effort
> > > >
> > > > 7. Right mindfulness
> > > >
> > > > 8. Right concentration
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > o Theravada Buddhism embraces all three categories of the Noble
> > > > Eightfold Path.
> > > >
> > > > o Zen accepts all three categories, but tends to de-emphasize I and
> > > > II, in my obsevation/knowledge/belief.
> > > >
> > > > o zen accepts category III only, or possibly only steps 7. and 8. of
> > > > category III.
> > > >
> > > > -------
> > > >
> > > > Zenists (and zenists) seek to achieve, or, without seeking, achieve in
> > > > kensho-satori, glimpses of: a sense of no-self or no I/me/mine; a sense
> > > > of an absolute nondual reality; a sense of nothing arising or perishing;
> > > > a sense of freedom from all bonds; and a sense of seeing directly and
> > > > deeply into the nature of things, without discriminating or discursive
> > > > thinking.
> > > >
> > > > The experience of the ineffable mind-space decribed above has been
> > > > labeled 'realizing Buddha Nature".
> > > >
> > > > I say 'glimpses of a sense of'' because we have to take the practitioner
> > > > at his/her word, or the Zen Teacher at his/her word for this
> > > > accomplishment or non-accomplishment of a student of Zen experiencing
> > > > the above state.
> > > >
> > > > And, it doesn't really matter because, no tangible benefits are promised
> > > > to ensue from these experiences. Do non-experiencers of kensho-satori
> > > > observe any tangible, positive transformation in Zenists who have
> > > > experienced kensho-satori? We do not know.
> > > >
> > > > ------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Of the dozens and dozens of zen/Zen centers in the US, perhaps only one
> > > > advocates 'zen'. Possibly for now we ought to only focus on comparing
> > > > Theravada Buddhism with *Zen*, and leave out zen.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Daniel, kindly tell us if through Theravada Buddhist practices,
> > > > experiences of mind-states similar to the ones in kensho-satori tend to
> > > > arise.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, ED
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------
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