Bill, You say, 'It's should be translated as just 'original nature' or perhaps 'Original Nature' to show it is a particular thing, not a general thing. It's the same 'orginal nature' for everyone. ' Is there any logic in your remarks? Anthony
--- On Thu, 26/5/11, Bill! <[email protected]> wrote: From: Bill! <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, 26 May, 2011, 9:10 AM Siska, On one level both of the terms 'kensho' and 'satori' do mean 'seeing into one's own nature'. The difference being 'kensho' is a brief, fleeting glimpse and 'satori' is a deeper and longer lasting awareness, but both terms refer to the same thing. On another level 'seeing into one's own nature' is a somewhat clumsy translation. It' not really 'one's own nature' - as in 'your individual nature'. The term 'one's own nature' in English could be interpreted as being a different nature for each individual - like 'one's own calling' or 'one's own fate'. It's should be translated as just 'original nature' or perhaps 'Original Nature' to show it is a particular thing, not a general thing. It's the same 'orginal nature' for everyone. This concept is related to the confusion that exists about the term 'Buddha'. It is a singlular term. There are not multiple 'buddhas', there is only one. Translations like 'Guatama was a buddha' should really be 'Guatama is Buddha'. There is only one and past and future tenses don't apply. Seeing into (experiencing/having awareness of) the singlular and universally shared Buddha Nature is kensho - is satori. ...and of course as needs be stated since I am now the Kinder and Gentler Bill!, this is all my opinion. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > The literal meaning of kensho (or jian xing in chinese) is not first glimpse. > If it is referred to as first glimpse, then perhaps it is experienced only > once. > > Literal meaning of jian xing, as Anthony and Ed have explained to me, is > seeing one's own nature. Some other descriptions say it happens very quickly > and it is very clear. The experience of insight or nyana (nana) is where one > sees the three characteristics of impermanence, sufferings and no-sef by > experience. It is also very clear when it happens. That is why I concluded > these two are same experience, referred to differently in different > traditions. But I'm not sure. > > I wonder if Daniel is still around, I hope he is. Am I the only one, apart > from Daniel, in this forum who has practised Theravada meditation before? > > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:39:41 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > Siska, > > I was told 'kensho' meant 'first glimpse' or 'inital breakthrough'. It does > imply it is a one-time thing since it uses the adjectives 'first' and > 'initial'. As I've said below 'kensho' is also not permanent although the > memory of 'kensho' is pretty persistant. I think it is a term mainly used in > Japanese Renzai Zen Buddhism because their teaching techniques, such as koan > study, are very aggressive (sudden enlighenment) and calibrated to push the > student to experience Buddha Nature quickly. For that reason the first > experience is somewhat shallow and fleeting. After that there is a long > period of subsequent teachings (other types of koans) that help the student > cultivate and integrate the experience of Buddha Nature into their everyday > life. > > This can be contrasted with Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism whose teaching > techniques are more subtle (gradual enlighenment) and geared to a longer > initial period of prepartation so that when Buddha Nature is finally > experienced the student is much better prepared. > > I don't know where I heard the following analogy, but it is: > > 'If enlightenment can be likened to being wet, Soto zen is like strolling > aroung in a light mist for a long period of time before you suddenly realize > you are soaking wet. Renzai zen is like being suddenly pushed into a swimming > pool! You're wet, but you don't immediately know exactly what happened. > > ...Bill! > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > The literal meaning of kensho is not 'first glimpse'. When translated as > > first glimpse, does it mean that one can only experience kensho once? > > > > Now trouble in understanding these two terms is that I've never attended > > any zen meditation retreat before. So I've never had any meditative > > experience where afterwards a certain teacher advise me that that is > > kensho. Whatever I think I know about kensho is only based on other > > people's descriptions. And these descriptions seem to be similar to an > > experience referred to as nyana/nana (insight) in Theravada meditation > > retreat. > > > > Ed might have good links to describe what nyana/nana is for your comparison > > ;-) > > > > When I'm fortunate enough to attend zen retreat and experience kensho, I'll > > let you know whether these two are the same :-) > > > > Siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:17:33 > > To: <[email protected]> > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > Siska, > > > > The term 'kensho' is Japanese term and is used in Japanese Zen Buddism. It > > was used by teachers from both the Renzai and Soto schools in the zendo > > where I received instruction. > > > > I was told that 'kensho' means 'first glimpse'. That might not be the > > actual Japanese:English translations, but that's what I was told. It refers > > to an event in which a student's (or anyone else) initially gains awareness > > of Buddha Nature. It implies an awareness that is of short duration and > > fades quickly over time. > > > > This term can be compared with 'satori' which I was told means 'great > > enlightenment'. 'Satori' is an event that marks an awareness of Buddha > > Nature is very deep and long-lasting. > > > > This is my understanding of these two terms. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > I still cannot figure out clearly what kensho actually is, but from the > > > descriptions, it looks like kensho is very similar to nyana (insight) > > > experience as in Mahasi tradition in Theravada. > > > > > > Daniel, looking forward to your opinion (or correction). > > > > > > Siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "ED" <seacrofter001@> > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:45:08 > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > Definitions: Zen = Zen Buddhism; zen = Zen minus the Buddhism > > > > > > The Noble Eightfold Path is sometimes divided into three basic > > > categories as follows: > > > > > > > > > I. Wisdom (Sanskrit: prajna, Pali: panna) > > > > > > 1. Right understanding > > > > > > 2. Right intention > > > > > > II. Ethical conduct (Sanskrit and Pali: sila) > > > > > > 3. Right speech > > > > > > 4. Right action > > > > > > 5. Right livelihood > > > > > > III. Concentration (Sanskrit and Pali: samadhi) > > > > > > 6. Right effort > > > > > > 7. Right mindfulness > > > > > > 8. Right concentration > > > > > > > > > o Theravada Buddhism embraces all three categories of the Noble > > > Eightfold Path. > > > > > > o Zen accepts all three categories, but tends to de-emphasize I and > > > II, in my obsevation/knowledge/belief. > > > > > > o zen accepts category III only, or possibly only steps 7. and 8. of > > > category III. > > > > > > ------- > > > > > > Zenists (and zenists) seek to achieve, or, without seeking, achieve in > > > kensho-satori, glimpses of: a sense of no-self or no I/me/mine; a sense > > > of an absolute nondual reality; a sense of nothing arising or perishing; > > > a sense of freedom from all bonds; and a sense of seeing directly and > > > deeply into the nature of things, without discriminating or discursive > > > thinking. > > > > > > The experience of the ineffable mind-space decribed above has been > > > labeled 'realizing Buddha Nature". > > > > > > I say 'glimpses of a sense of'' because we have to take the practitioner > > > at his/her word, or the Zen Teacher at his/her word for this > > > accomplishment or non-accomplishment of a student of Zen experiencing > > > the above state. > > > > > > And, it doesn't really matter because, no tangible benefits are promised > > > to ensue from these experiences. Do non-experiencers of kensho-satori > > > observe any tangible, positive transformation in Zenists who have > > > experienced kensho-satori? We do not know. > > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > Of the dozens and dozens of zen/Zen centers in the US, perhaps only one > > > advocates 'zen'. Possibly for now we ought to only focus on comparing > > > Theravada Buddhism with *Zen*, and leave out zen. > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel, kindly tell us if through Theravada Buddhist practices, > > > experiences of mind-states similar to the ones in kensho-satori tend to > > > arise. > > > > > > Thanks, ED > > > > > >
