Mike, Experiencing feeling in your joints or muscles is not imaginagry. It is a sensual experience (touch). What we describe as 'pain' includes a JUDGEMENT, CATEGORY and finally TERM placed upon that feeling. If we judge the feeling to be 'bad', and categorized it as 'minor', we might describe it with the term 'ache' or 'discomfort'. If we judge the feeling to be 'bad', and catergorize it as 'intense', we might describe it with the term 'pain'. The judgement, categorization and term are the illusory add-ons.
And just in case free0grace is lurking and reading, the above paragraph is IMO for God's sake! ...Bill! --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Hi JM, Bill! and ED, > > Yes, I tend to agree with you here. We instinctively know when a certain pain > is telling us, "Stop what you're doing... NOW!" in order to protect us. But > the 'pain' from sitting with the spine erect, cross-legged on a cushion is > not the same thing at all and is merely discomfort (often labelled as 'pain' > in order to make us feel ok for giving in to it). Bill! often talks about the > illusionary aspect of phenomena - well what a perfect opportunity to put that > to the test and see pain (NOT the disabling kind) as only a mental construct > and sit thru it (the pain is not 'me' or 'mine' and is impermanent). Far from > being cognitive, vipassana meditation 'uses' the body like a laboratory to > really experience what is ultimate reality and what is illusionary. How many > of us are satisfied with our zazen and then the whole house of cards comes > crashing down with something simple like bad a toothache? I guess the key > word is 'equanimity', but IMO, one can only > realise > > it by going thru experience (trials and tribulations) and not thru merely > reasoning about it. > > > I don't know a great deal about chi, but given its long time use in Oriental > medicine, it must have some merit. What I've found recently, is that my > sitting time has lengthened considerablydue to the insights gained from > observing what is happening to the body/mind during the meditation session. > Along with these insights, there does seem to be both a mental and physical > 'unblocking' of sorts, with a feeling of energy being able to flow more > easily. What this 'energy' is, and what is being 'unblocked' - I have no idea. > > Mike > > > > ________________________________ > From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ <chan.jmjm@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, 3 June 2011, 2:49 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > >  > Hi Bill and Mike, > > In our school, an effective sitting is the foundation to > everything. That's sort of the only thing we are somewhat adamant > about. If I may share with you some of the witnesses that I have > from a few hundred cases in California. > > When we have pain, (not the bone fracture kind of pain, just the > tendon, muscle kind), meanings our inner chi is trying to find new > passages. When we focus and be one with it, the pain will > diminish in time, because when we focus on it, instead of > resisting it, we are applying our chi to it. Sort of acupuncture > there with our mind instead of a needle. I call that > "soft-acupuncture". :-) > > We have many people began their practice with us, initially with > lower back pain, sciatica, pain from spinal surgery, etc. All > healed after a few months of sitting. Chi is our innate life > force that energize itself wherever it was blocked. > > Check this one out, please http://www.chanliving.org/pain.html > > Since a few years ago, Bill has regarded Chi based sitting as > illusory by his mind. If you could open your heart and welcomes all > advice regardless of your judgmental mind, your pain probably > already subsided by now. > > I love you, Bill, you know. I hope you can open up your heart and > stop walk a certain path. Each path, though is not perfect, has its > own merit. > > :-) > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn > to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to > reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world > http://www.universal-oneness.org > On 6/1/2011 11:00 PM, Bill! wrote: >  > >Mike, > > > >You can tough it out if you want. I'll wave the white > flag. > > > >IMO physical pain is your body telling you that something > is wrong. I try to listen to my body when it speaks. > > > >My approach to this is NOT what I was taught in my > Japanese Zen Buddhist training. They also thought you > ought to tough it out. I did that then, HOO-AH!, but I'm > over that now. > > > >...Bill! > > > >--- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > >> > >> Bill!, > >> >I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or > back... Usually pain in the legs or back is do to bad > sitting posture... > >> > >> I disagree. Usually pain in the legs, hips, back, > shoulders etc. is merely another word for 'discomfort' > induced by sitting in one position and not brought on by > anything serious. You could have the suppleness of a yogi > or ballerina and still experience 'pain' from sitting for > an hour - in contrast to the very real pain caused by > something more serious. Vipassana meditation encourages > you to face that discomfort and gain insight into the > impermanence of that pain/discomfort and how our body/mind > reactes to it (usually aversion). Or you could just wave a > white flag to it ; ) àHooah! > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Thursday, 2 June 2011, 9:48 > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > >> > >> > >> à> >> Mike, > >> > >> Nice try but my attachment to my zafu is via my butt > and not my discriminating mind. I don't contemplate the > various attributes of my zafu while sitting. Like, 'What > is it that keeps me off the floor?'. > >> > >> In sesshins (Japanese Zen Buddhist meditation > retreats)I have sat as long as 40 mins periods, and even > up to 60 mins occasionally when the > >> time-keeper goes to sleep. > >> > >> I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or back. > I will make some adjustments to try to alleviate the pain > and continue sitting, but if that fails I'll just get up, > walk around a little and then return to sitting. Usually > pain in the legs or back is do to bad sitting posture so I > make sure my posture is correct when I return to sitting. > >> > >> ...Bill! > >> > >> ...Bill! > >> > >> --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Bill!, > >> > > >> > So it's safe to say you have no attacments to > where or how you sit, other than what is comfortable at > that particular time? Same with the jhanas. They take you > deeper into your meditation and help to make the session > last longer (much like discovering a zafu that fits your > bum correctly ;) But they are not essential. There are > warnings aplenty in the literature I've read against > becoming attached to them just like anything else (at the > risk of becoming a 'bliss-bunny'). > >> > > >> > > >> > I usually time my sittings between 40-60 mins > depending on how busy I am. If I have time I'll do this > twice a day, but at least once in the evening. I usually > sit cross-legged, but will sometimes sit Burmese style. If > I'm feeling that the session is going well (in a vipassana > sense), but the pain is becoming too distracting, then > I'll stay mindful of my movements, but change to a more > comfortable position. However, the 40-60 min session is > usually done with no movement or changing of position > whatsoever (I wasn't kidding when I said vipassana is the > SAS of meditation sessions!).Ãâà> >> > > >> > Mike > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > >> > To: [email protected] > >> > Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2011, 16:08 > >> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada > Buddhism > >> > > >> > > >> > Ãâà> >> > Mike, > >> > > >> > At home I have a zafu and zabuton. My zafu is > x-large to accomodate my x-large butt. I sit cross-legged > now. I used to sit in a half-lotus but never could really > manage a full-lotus. I eventually found the half-lotus to > put me into a little bit of a tilt so I now just sit > cross-legged, and switch the top and bottom leg > occasionally when I remember to do so. I usually sit for > 3-consequtive 20-minute periods with a 5-minute break in > between to get up and stretch, walk around or go to the > toliet. > >> > > >> > When I travel I just stuff a pillow between my > legs and sit in a kneeling position; or if that doesn't > work I just sit on a firm chair (wood is best), sitting on > the front edge with my back straight and not leaning > against the chair. > >> > > >> > How about you? > >> > > >> > ...Bill! > >> > > >> > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Bill!, > >> > > > >> > > >or (IMO) ATTACHMENT to jhanas. > >> > > > >> > > Do you usually use a zafu/mat etc. to sit > zazen, or do you just sit wherever? > >> > > > >> > > Mike > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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