Hi Moriel and others, Do you have a list of "realistic changes" in mind for the community?
I hear almost no one say that the typical state of (in)civility on wiki or on Wikimedia-l is good enough or that people are being hypersensitive, so I get the sense that there's a lot of agreement that we have a cultural problem. Ideas for solutions seem to be in short supply, so any "realistic changes" that you can suggest would be good to hear, either on this list or in IdeaLab. If there are issues other than civility and the occasional trolling, I think it would be good to have a list of those. Then everyone can be looking at the same set of problems and be thinking about how to address them. Our current IEG grantee for research on female editing, Mssemantics (Amanda), may have something to say, although she may want to wait until she feels she has adequate data from her research. In any case, I'm going to encourage Mssemantics to participate on the discussion on this list or at least listen to it. Pine On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Moriel Schottlender <mor...@gmail.com> wrote: > I understand all the reasons, but I must disagree on a couple of points*. > > I think it might have to do with me having a different experience with > these topics, but while I do agree that there's absolutely a great > advantage of having a women-only space, I also think that it is > context-dependent. > > I don't know if we can deal or attempt to fix the gendergap issues in > Wikipedia without engaging the men. I can also see how some men really want > to help but are unaware of the depth of the problems at hand, so I don't > see a problem with dedicating one or two threads to talking about it. > > Then again, that's also why I prefer forums over lists; in forums, you can > have these types of discussions and people can choose which discussion to > go and read and which to ignore and never get into. Much harder to do in an > email lists. But I digress. > > I think that there could be a huge benefit of a more closed or restricted > women-only group and that group can serve as both a place to feel > comfortable in (which is VERY important) and a place to brainstorm without > fear of argumentative responses. > > *But* since this specific mailing list is public, I think we should > definitely consider the fact that having men -- and, yes, sometimes > spending the energy of explaining (or creating a boilerplate response if > these cases start being overwhelming) might actually work for our benefit. > I'm thinking about men who don't really "get it" but want to, who try to > understand but don't notice that they're stuck in the same issues we're > trying to improve. > > If we don't handle those situations, we will lose the allies we *have* to > have in order to commit realistic changes in the community. > > Moriel > > * Oh noes, argumentativeness! > > > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Valerie's interesting comments are in line with one of the reasons I've >> stayed off of this list in the past. I am ok with women having a space >> without men around, just like I feel men should be able to have a space >> without women around. I'm familiar with a workplace where at least one >> employee lounge is female-only, and considering that many of the employees >> of both genders have union representation, I suppose that the employees as >> a whole support having that lounge be the way it is. In the Wikipedia >> context, if some women wanted to have a supportive email list or social >> network group only for women, where women could talk in relative privacy, I >> would say go for it. >> >> Interestingly, I was invited, completely sight unseen and with only the >> most basic of introductions from a third party, to attend an edit-a-thon at >> what I believe was a female-focused software engineering workspace. I told >> the person who invited me that I was uncomfortable with stepping into the >> women's space, and she assured me that as long as people are respectful >> that everything would be ok. I'm not the type of male who would invite >> myself to an event like that, nor do I plan on setting up workshops for the >> opposite gender. I thought it was remarkably open of the women to invite me >> into their space, especially knowing relatively little about me. I guess >> they felt safety in numbers? I'm not used to getting that kind of >> invitation! >> >> Anyway, if some of the WikiWomen want to set up a relatively private and >> supportive space just for WikiWomen, I'd say that sounds like an idea worth >> trying. If there is some need for resources, IdeaLab and the grants >> programs stand ready to hear requests. (: >> >> Pine >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmoor...@verizon.net> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for excellent comments below. Let's keep them in mind. Even some >>> of us "tough chicks" still can get sucked into the "helper" role even if >>> it's against our own interests... sigh... >>> >>> On 7/2/2014 6:33 PM, Valerie Aurora wrote: >>> >>>> .... >>>> >>>> Hi Phoebe, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully explained comment! The >>>> perspective I am coming from here is over 13 years of experience with >>>> spaces for supporting women in open tech/culture, starting with >>>> LinuxChix in 2002. >>>> >>>> A pattern that groups like this have found over and over again is that >>>> a spaces designed to support women in these areas inevitably attract >>>> men with poor social skills, who then ask the group for (unpaid) help >>>> improving their social skills. In most open tech/culture groups, such >>>> requests would be unthinkable, but we are often socialized to expect >>>> women to provide emotional support and help to others (especially men >>>> and children) on request, without consideration for the value of their >>>> time and energy. >>>> >>>> The result is that, without a strong awareness and guarding of the >>>> original purpose of the group, the group dedicates an ever-larger >>>> portion of its time to teaching men social skills. Many of the people >>>> who are interested in the original purpose of the group tend to lose >>>> interest and depart. This is exactly what happened to LinuxChix - our >>>> IRC channel became primarily about counseling various men who had >>>> found a welcoming and supportive environment, and our mailing lists >>>> were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional >>>> boosts than for women looking for a supportive environment where they >>>> could talk about Linux. >>>> >>>> In short, I agree with you that there is some potential benefit to >>>> providing free social skills counseling to men who are interested in >>>> supporting women in open tech/culture. In my experience, the cost is >>>> much greater: the time and emotional energy of many women that could >>>> be used much more effectively on other projects. >>>> >>>> -VAL >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gendergap mailing list >>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gendergap mailing list >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> >> > > > -- > No trees were harmed in the creation of this post. > But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were > terribly inconvenienced during its transmission! > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > >
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