Valerie's interesting comments are in line with one of the reasons I've
stayed off of this list in the past. I am ok with women having a space
without men around, just like I feel men should be able to have a space
without women around. I'm familiar with a workplace where at least one
employee lounge is female-only, and considering that many of the employees
of both genders have union representation, I suppose that the employees as
a whole support having that lounge be the way it is. In the Wikipedia
context, if some women wanted to have a supportive email list or social
network group only for women, where women could talk in relative privacy, I
would say go for it.

Interestingly, I was invited, completely sight unseen and with only the
most basic of introductions from a third party, to attend an edit-a-thon at
what I believe was a female-focused software engineering workspace. I told
the person who invited me that I was uncomfortable with stepping into the
women's space, and she assured me that as long as people are respectful
that everything would be ok. I'm not the type of male who would invite
myself to an event like that, nor do I plan on setting up workshops for the
opposite gender. I thought it was remarkably open of the women to invite me
into their space, especially knowing relatively little about me. I guess
they felt safety in numbers? I'm not used to getting that kind of
invitation!

Anyway, if some of the WikiWomen want to set up a relatively private and
supportive space just for WikiWomen, I'd say that sounds like an idea worth
trying. If there is some need for resources, IdeaLab and the grants
programs stand ready to hear requests. (:

Pine


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmoor...@verizon.net>
wrote:

> Thanks for excellent comments below. Let's keep them in mind. Even some of
> us "tough chicks" still can get sucked into the "helper" role even if it's
> against our own interests... sigh...
>
> On 7/2/2014 6:33 PM, Valerie Aurora wrote:
>
>> ....
>>
>> Hi Phoebe,
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully explained comment! The
>> perspective I am coming from here is over 13 years of experience with
>> spaces for supporting women in open tech/culture, starting with
>> LinuxChix in 2002.
>>
>> A pattern that groups like this have found over and over again is that
>> a spaces designed to support women in these areas inevitably attract
>> men with poor social skills, who then ask the group for (unpaid) help
>> improving their social skills. In most open tech/culture groups, such
>> requests would be unthinkable, but we are often socialized to expect
>> women to provide emotional support and help to others (especially men
>> and children) on request, without consideration for the value of their
>> time and energy.
>>
>> The result is that, without a strong awareness and guarding of the
>> original purpose of the group, the group dedicates an ever-larger
>> portion of its time to teaching men social skills. Many of the people
>> who are interested in the original purpose of the group tend to lose
>> interest and depart. This is exactly what happened to LinuxChix - our
>> IRC channel became primarily about counseling various men who had
>> found a welcoming and supportive environment, and our mailing lists
>> were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional
>> boosts than for women looking for a supportive environment where they
>> could talk about Linux.
>>
>> In short, I agree with you that there is some potential benefit to
>> providing free social skills counseling to men who are interested in
>> supporting women in open tech/culture. In my experience, the cost is
>> much greater: the time and emotional energy of many women that could
>> be used much more effectively on other projects.
>>
>> -VAL
>>
>>
>
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