Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 8/4/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against theGentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a Christian church, burns downthe Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesque the
pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanesthe cult images.Dear Gilberto,Okay, I'll grant you, you found one instance.
No, several. It's better to read the second e-mail though.
But it sounds more like mobviolence than an execution.I think we already discussed the Reconstructionalists as an anomaly.
Where do you get the concept of anomaly from. I thought you were a
nominalist. There is no such thing as an ideal real typical
Christian. The Reconstructionists are no less Christian than anyone
else.
In the Salem witch trials, at least one man was stoned in the sense of
being crushed by a rock. And two dogs were pelted by stones.
Uh, that was not a stoning,
Well it certainly wasn't a nerfing. Actually, pressing by rocks is included in some definitions of stoning.
As for throwing stones at dogs, that has been around as long asthere were dogs and men.
The point is that in the context of the Salem witch trials, it was an execution.
Obligatory Bahai Content:Psst. This isn't soc.religion.bahai
and we don't have 'obligatory Baha'icontent.' If we get to far away from the list purpose, I'll let you know.
I was recently censored again on soc.religion.bahai so I was just being cautious.
Are there statements in the Bahai writings about the B
I'm not sure if this is what the Bahai faith is saying, but to me it would
be weird to argue that the punishment for these actions would change. Is thenature of the sex act today actually different from when it was 1000 yearsago?The nature of law enforcement is quite different. In antiquity there were no
prisons, no police, etc. And women are no longer considered men's property.
Even in the Bible, Joseph, and I think Jeremiah spent time imprisoned.
And regarding women, I'm not just talking about what notions might have
been current. Remember we are talking about scripture. Do you think
that God in the previous scriptures really ordained the women be
considered men's property?
Peace
Gilberto
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Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 8/4/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear
Gilberto,
Mob
violence (which usually involves throwing rocks) cannot be equated with
executions by stoning.
I think it depends on the degree to which the mob represents the values
of the community as a whole. For example, if you look at the prevalence
of lynching of Blacks in the US and the frequency with which it occured
and the extent to which the guilty people went unpunished... aspects of
the practice may have been illegal but it was condoned.
So if anti-semitism and fear of witchcraft or opposition to heresy are
community values, and Christian mobs implement those sentiments
publically through stoning, and go unpunished I'm not sure if you can
actually say that no Christian community has ever practiced stoning.
In any case, apparently Constantine who founded the Bogomils was sentenced to stoning by the Emperor.
Peace
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RE: ...a humiliating torment
Where do you get the concept of anomaly from. I thought you were a nominalist. There is no such thing as an ideal real typical Christian. The Reconstructionists are no less Christian than anyone else. Dear Gilberto, Would you say the same thing about Osama ben Laden? I'm not trying to define what a Christian is, but there are some views that are more normative than others. The Reconstructionalists are a group without much of a history in Christianity. Well it certainly wasn't a nerfing. Actually, pressing by rocks is included in some definitions of stoning. I don't remember it ever being suggested that Bilal was stoned. This was torture, not an execution like stoning. They really didn't intend to kill this guy, at least not that way. They were trying to force a confession out of him so then they could hang him. The point is that in the context of the Salem witch trials, it was an execution. Okay, if you want to say that Christians stoned dogs, you can. But so far all you've come up with is mobs throwing rocks, dogs being stoned, and the use of heavy stones for judicial torture. That is pretty slim for a religion with a 2000 year old history. I was recently censored again on soc.religion.bahai so I was just being cautious. Or maybe touchy. ;-} Even in the Bible, Joseph, and I think Jeremiah spent time imprisoned. Prisons in antiquity were intended as holding cells for those awaiting sentence. But people were not typically sentenced to prison itself. Do you think that God in the previous scriptures really ordained the women be considered men's property? Ordained? No. Accepted the fact? Yes. Just as the Qur'an (and the Bible) accepted the fact of slavery. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 8/5/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Where do you get the concept of anomaly from. I thought you were anominalist. There is no such thing as an ideal real typical Christian.The Reconstructionists are no less Christian than anyone else.
Dear Gilberto,Would you say the same thing about Osama ben Laden?
Firstly, I never claimed to be a nominalist. But secondly, yes, I don't
have a problem saying OBL is Muslim. He's horribly mistaken of course.
And I'm not signing up to join Al-Qaedah anytime soon. But he's Muslim.
And the KKK and Christian Identity folks are Christian. And the Meir
Kahane followers and the Barch Goldsteins are Jewish. etc.
I'm not trying to define what a Christian is, but there are some views thatare more normative than others. The Reconstructionalists are a group without
much of a history in Christianity.
I feel like you are nitpicking. The Reconstructionalists are one modern
group, but from the very beginning of Christianity, there have been
MANY different groups which in various respects have looked at the
commandments of the Old Testament and said, hey there is a lot of good
stuff in here that we should still be doing. From the beginning there
were Jewish Christians who believed the Torah was still binding. The
Ethiopian Orthodox Church is one which had more Judaizing tendancies
than some others. Hebrew Israelites are another such group. So are
Seventh Day Adventists in their own way. Worlwide Church of God. etc.
Well it certainly wasn't a nerfing. Actually, pressing by rocks is included
in some definitions of stoning.I don't remember it ever being suggested that Bilal was stoned.
It is just part of the definition: From Wikipedia
Stoning is a form of capital punishment in which a human is put
to death by
having stones
thrown at them repeatedly, generally by a crowd, the normal form, allowing
society at large to participate in the administration of justice.
In a larger sense it may be said of other methods:
having a single stone of sufficient size placed upon them so as to prevent
their breathing
having a large door placed upon them and laden with stones
being thrown from a height onto a large stone or rock outcropping.
This wastorture, not an execution like stoning. They really didn't intend to kill
this guy, at least not that way. They were trying to force a confession outof him so then they could hang him.The point is that in the context of the Salem witch trials, it was anexecution.
Okay, if you want to say that Christians stoned dogs, you can.
Fine.
But so farall you've come up with is mobs throwing rocks, dogs being stoned, and the
use of heavy stones for judicial torture. That is pretty slim for a religionwith a 2000 year old history.
And a Christian Emperor sentencing a heretic to stoning, and a
major Christian reformer advocating capital punishment for adultery
by citing the OT passages on stoning, and mobs repeatedly carrying out
stoning without any indication that they were punished for their
actions, and a modern Christian movement which is getting more and more
prominent openly advocating that adulterers, homosexuals, and
rebellious children be stoned... etc.
I was recently censored againon soc.religion.bahai soI was just beingcautious.
Or maybe touchy. ;-}
Eh, censorship is censorship. It's a real problem.
Even in the Bible, Joseph, and I think Jeremiah spent time imprisoned.
Prisons in antiquity were intended as holding cells for those awaitingsentence.
Fine. But in your previous e-mail you just said there weren't any prisons.
Do you think that God in the previous scriptures really ordained the women
be considered men's property?Ordained? No. Accepted the fact? Yes. Just as the Qur'an (and the Bible)accepted the fact of slavery.
You have a way of removing parts of the discussion from their contexts.
atomizing a discussion in a way which avoids the main point.
Gilberto:
I'm not sure if this is what the Bahai faith is saying, but to me it would
be weird to argue that the punishment for these actions would change. Is thenature of the sex act today actually different from when it was 1000 yearsago?
Susan:The nature of law enforcement is quite different. In antiquity there were no
prisons, no police, etc. And women are no longer considered men's property.
So if God never ordained that women be considered men's property, why
would that idea even be an issue in comparing say the penal code
regarding sex acts in the Penteteuch and in the Bahai laws?
Peace
Gilberto
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RE: ...a humiliating torment
The Reconstructionalists are one modern group, but from the very beginning of Christianity, there have been MANY different groups which in various respects have looked at the commandments of the Old Testament and said, hey there is a lot of good stuff in here that we should still be doing. Dear Gilberto, And none of them went as far as the Reconstructionalists. From the beginning there were Jewish Christians who believed the Torah was still binding. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is one which had more Judaizing tendancies than some others. Hebrew Israelites are another such group. So are Seventh Day Adventists in their own way. Worlwide Church of God. etc. But none of these attempted to enforce things like stoning adulterers. Well it certainly wasn't a nerfing. Actually, pressing by rocks is included in some definitions of stoning. I don't remember it ever being suggested that Bilal was stoned. Bilal was subjected to the same treatment as the man in Salem. In a larger sense it may be said of other methods : having a single stone of sufficient size placed upon them so as to prevent their breathing having a large door placed upon them and laden with stones being thrown from a height onto a large stone or rock outcropping. That's not the kind of 'stoning' spoken of in the Old Testament which is what we are talking about. But in your previous e-mail you just said there weren't any prisons. My point was that imprisonment wasn't regarded as a form of punishment, per se. You have a way of removing parts of the discussion from their contexts. atomizing a discussion in a way which avoids the main point. I was about to say the same thing about you. ;-} We seem to be getting away from the question as to whether or not Christians ever stoned anybody for adultery. I think, by the way, you are vastely overestimating the numbers of Christian Reconstructionalists. As Mark pointed out, Gary North went over to Christian Identity. Fundamentalists have become increasingly politicized over the past thirty years, but very, very few are Reconstructionalists. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 8/5/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The Reconstructionalists are one modern group, but from the very beginningof Christianity, there have been MANY different groups which in variousrespects have looked at the commandments of the Old Testament and said, hey
there is a lot of good stuff in here that we should still be doing.Dear Gilberto,And none of them wentas far as the Reconstructionalists. From the beginning there were Jewish Christians who believed the Torah was
still binding. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is one which had moreJudaizing tendancies than some others. Hebrew Israelites are another suchgroup. So are Seventh Day Adventists in their own way. Worlwide Church of
God. etc. But none of these attempted to enforce things like stoning adulterers.
Calvin who is well within what could be considered normative
Christianity in your terms, at least he's not a big huge heretic, set
up a theocratic government in Geneva where adulterers were given
capital punishment.
I think, by the way, you are vastely overestimating the numbers of Christian Reconstructionalists.
I don't think I ever estimated the numbers of Christian
Reconstructionists. But the stuff I've been reading has been suggesting
that even though the movement itself is arguably contraversial, their
ideas have still been spreading and influencing the larger evangelical
world (although not necessarily while packaged as Reconstructionism)
As Mark pointed out, Gary North went over to ChristianIdentity. Fundamentalists have become increasingly politicized over the past
thirty years...
Yes, and that's part of what I'm talking about. Having a group saying
they want Christian values reflected and enshrined in U.S. law (e.g.
making gay marriage illegal, banning abortion, teaching intelligent
design in school) and claiming that the Founding Fathers intended the
US to be a Christian country, etc. is a hop, skip and jump away
from implementing actual OT law as the law of the land.
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RE: ...a humiliating torment
Susan, At 03:04 AM 8/5/2005, you wrote: I think, by the way, you are vastely overestimating the numbers of Christian Reconstructionalists. As Mark pointed out, Gary North went over to Christian Identity. Fundamentalists have become increasingly politicized over the past thirty years, but very, very few are Reconstructionalists. It depends on how broadly you want to define the concept. Rushdoony was a Calvinist, and it is true that Christian Reconstructionists make up only a tiny minority within 5-point Calvinism. However, outside Calvinism, Christian Reconstructionism and Rushdoony have had a considerable impact on fundamentalism and conservative evangelicalism - especially with pentecostals and charismatics. When separated from Calvinism, these views are generally called dominion theology. For instance, Pat Robertson, while a dispensational premillennialist, has taken some ideas developed by Rushdoony, whom he admires a great deal, and used them in his own version of the Christian Right. These are most evident in his book, _The Secret Kingdom_, which I read back when it first came out in 1992. Also, kingdom now theology (latter rain), a pentecostal movement which owes much to both Rushdoony and William Branham, is overtly post-millennialist. Proponents believe that Christ will not return until the church has dominion over the earth. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
When separated from Calvinism, these views are generally called dominion theology. Dear Mark, I though dominion theology *was* Calvinistic. For instance, Pat Robertson, while a dispensational premillennialist, has taken some ideas developed by Rushdoony, whom he admires a great deal, and used them in his own version of the Christian Right. Does he give him credit? I know the reason Bill Moyer did the expose on the Reconstructionalist was because of his own fears they were taking over his denomination (Southern Baptist.) warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Hi, Susan, At 10:24 AM 8/5/2005, you wrote: I though dominion theology *was* Calvinistic. The terminology is sometimes confusing. However, no, dominion theology is generally the term used for kingdom now theology, a pentecostal approach (also called latter rain) inspired by William Branham. Adherents have more recently adopted some of Rushdoony's ideas (Christian reconstructionism). There has been a bit of controversy among more mainstream reconstructionists over followers of Branham's movement (kingdom now/latter rain) wanting to work with them. For instance, the reconstructionists are Calvinist, and the dominionists are Arminian. However, both groups want the church to have dominion over the world in preparation for the return of Christ. For that reason, other theological differences have sometimes been ignored. Does he give him credit? As I recall, not in the book - and he doesn't quote from Rushdoony. Roberton has to be very careful. Most of his followers are premillennial dispensationalists (the rapture, etc.). I once watched Pat *hint* that he does not believe in a pretribulation rapture, but that is about as far as I think he wants to go publicly. I know the reason Bill Moyer did the expose on the Reconstructionalist was because of his own fears they were taking over his denomination (Southern Baptist.) If Moyers believed that, he doesn't have a good understanding of either the Southern Baptist Convention *or* the reconstructionists. It's not going to happen. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Even today, there are some reconstructionistChristians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning
implemented as punishment.Perhaps, but it has never been done in historical Christianity.
*389 to 390 * All non-Christian date-methods are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, Libraries and pagan Temples and lynch the Gentiles. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a Christian church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesque the pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.
from:
http://www.vasapolliphotography.com/Hellenism/Christian%20Persecutions.htm
Here is a statement from the reconstructionists, a modern movement:
Bahnsen concluded that "there is no cancellation of the death sentence for those crimes which are specified in the Older Testament"(5)
In the words of Mark Rushdoony, son of R.J. Rushdoony, "The divorce problem will be solved in a society under God's law because any spouse guilty of capital crimes (adultery, homosexuality, Sabbath desecration, etc
.) would be swiftly executed, thus freeing the other part to remarry Parents would be required to bring their incorrigible children before the judge and, if convicted, have them stoned to death."
(6) Like the younger Rushdoony, Gary North has insisted upon stoning as the "most covenantally valid form of execution,"
Gary North wrote, "Public stoning forces citizens to face the reality of the ultimate civil sanction, execution, which in turn points to God's ultimate sanction at judgment day. Stoning also faithfully images the promised judgment against Satan: the crushing of his head by the promised Seed" (
Tools of Dominion, page 44).
http://www.crownrights.com/reconstruction/six.htm
In the Salem witch trials, at least one man was stoned in the sense of being crushed by a rock. And two dogs were pelted by stones.
Here are some more extensive statements from Reconstructionists speaking in favor of stoning:
(some as recently as 1998)
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/fundienazis/fundiewords.htm
(and there is some other generally scary stuff in here as well)
In Calvin's Geneva, some people were excuted for adultery, and the passages in Deuteronomy on stoning were cited by Calvin in support of his position but apparently it doesn't seem as if they were actually stoned. (drowning and decapitation are mentioned)
There are also examples of Christians stoning witches and Jews throughout history. But stoning is almost intrinsically a mob behavior so it is hard to find good accounts. So Christians have certainly stoned people who were thought to be sinful/evil/bad in Christian terms. And there are certainly examples of Christians today who approve of stoning and would like to see stoning implemented as a regular punishment. I'm still looking to see if there is an example of a court that officially sentenced someone to stoning. But given the first two facts I would be very surprised if such examples didn't exist.
Obligatory Bahai Content:
Are there statements in the Bahai writings about the Biblical hudood punishments? Do they give an idea of why stoning etc. were found in the Bible as punishments and were justified?
I'm not sure if this is what the Bahai faith is saying, but to me it would be weird to argue that the punishment for these actions would change. Is the nature of the sex act today actually different from when it was 1000 years ago?
Pecae
Gilberto
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RE: ...a humiliating torment
Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a Christian church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesque the pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images. Dear Gilberto, Okay, I'll grant you, you found one instance. But it sounds more like mob violence than an execution. I think we already discussed the Reconstructionalists as an anomaly. In the Salem witch trials, at least one man was stoned in the sense of being crushed by a rock. And two dogs were pelted by stones. Uh, that was not a stoning, it was judicial torture aimed at forcing someone to testify. As for throwing stones at dogs, that has been around as long as there were dogs and men. Obligatory Bahai Content: Psst. This isn't soc.religion.bahai and we don't have 'obligatory Baha'i content.' If we get to far away from the list purpose, I'll let you know. Are there statements in the Bahai writings about the Biblical hudood punishments? Do they give an idea of why stoning etc. were found in the Bible as punishments and were justified? I think Abdu'l-Baha says something about cuttting off the hand of a thief in SAQ. Maybe someone can find it. I'm not sure if this is what the Bahai faith is saying, but to me it would be weird to argue that the punishment for these actions would change. Is the nature of the sex act today actually different from when it was 1000 years ago? The nature of law enforcement is quite different. In antiquity there were no prisons, no police, etc. And women are no longer considered men's property. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0800DarkAge.html In the year 404AD, long after the complete triumph of Christianity, the gladiatorial games were proceeding as usual in the Roman amphitheater when the monk Telemachus flung himself into the arena to protest, and was stoned to death by the Christian spectators, Hypatia a pagan female mathematician living in Alexandria in the 4th-5th centuries was stoned by a Christian mob in 415, in part for her beliefs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomils Constantine, the founder of the heretical Bogomils sect was sentenced to stoning by the Emperor at the time. On 8/4/05, Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even today, there are some reconstructionistChristians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment.Perhaps, but it has never been done in historical Christianity. *389 to 390 * All non-Christian date-methods are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, Libraries and pagan Temples and lynch the Gentiles. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a Christian church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesque the pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images. from: http://www.vasapolliphotography.com/Hellenism/Christian%20Persecutions.htm Here is a statement from the reconstructionists, a modern movement: Bahnsen concluded that there is no cancellation of the death sentence for those crimes which are specified in the Older Testament (5) In the words of Mark Rushdoony, son of R.J. Rushdoony, The divorce problem will be solved in a society under God's law because any spouse guilty of capital crimes (adultery, homosexuality, Sabbath desecration, etc .) would be swiftly executed, thus freeing the other part to remarry Parents would be required to bring their incorrigible children before the judge and, if convicted, have them stoned to death. (6) Like the younger Rushdoony, Gary North has insisted upon stoning as the most covenantally valid form of execution, Gary North wrote, Public stoning forces citizens to face the reality of the ultimate civil sanction, execution, which in turn points to God's ultimate sanction at judgment day. Stoning also faithfully images the promised judgment against Satan: the crushing of his head by the promised Seed ( Tools of Dominion, page 44). http://www.crownrights.com/reconstruction/six.htm In the Salem witch trials, at least one man was stoned in the sense of being crushed by a rock. And two dogs were pelted by stones. Here are some more extensive statements from Reconstructionists speaking in favor of stoning: (some as recently as 1998) http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/fundienazis/fundiewords.htm (and there is some other generally scary stuff in here as well) In Calvin's Geneva, some people were excuted for adultery, and the passages in Deuteronomy on stoning were cited by Calvin in support of his position but apparently it doesn't seem as if they were actually stoned. (drowning and decapitation are mentioned) There are also examples of Christians stoning witches and Jews throughout history. But stoning is almost intrinsically a mob behavior so it is hard to find good accounts. So Christians have certainly stoned people who were thought to be sinful/evil/bad in Christian terms. And there are certainly examples of Christians today who approve of stoning and would like to see stoning implemented as a regular punishment. I'm still looking to see if there is an example of a court that officially sentenced someone to stoning. But given the first two facts I would be very surprised if such examples didn't exist. Obligatory Bahai Content: Are there statements in the Bahai writings about the Biblical hudood punishments? Do they give an idea of why stoning etc. were found in the Bible as punishments and were justified? I'm not sure if this is what the Bahai faith is saying, but to me it would be weird to argue that the punishment for these actions would change. Is the nature of the sex act today actually different from when it was 1000 years ago? Pecae Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Dear
Gilberto,
Mob
violence (which usually involves throwing rocks) cannot be equated with
executions by stoning.
warmest, Susan
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RE: ...a humiliating torment
Both both the Reconstructionists and Fundamentalists both are a part of Christian efforts to implement a particular vision of Biblical values onto the larger society. They both tend to be a part of the religious Right. Dear Gilberto, Originally true fundamentalists were rather apolitical and believed that nothing much could be done about the larger society. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
I am talking about the present. -Gilberto On 8/1/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Both both the Reconstructionists and Fundamentalists both are a part of Christian efforts to implement a particular vision of Biblical values onto the larger society. They both tend to be a part of the religious Right. Dear Gilberto, Originally true fundamentalists were rather apolitical and believed that nothing much could be done about the larger society. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
...a humiliating torment
GS: I think I'd heard there was a geometrically increasing fine for adultery but I don't think I'd heard of the public humiliation of adulterers. SM: I'm not sure what Ron is referring to here either. SC: Not *public* but, ...in the world to come... God hath imposed a fine on every adulterer and adulteress, to be paid to the House of Justice: nine mithqals of gold, to be doubled if they should repeat the offence. Such is the penalty which He Who is the Lord of Names hath assigned them in this world; *and in the world to come He hath ordained for them a humiliating torment.* Should anyone be afflicted by a sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto his Lord. He, verily, granteth forgiveness unto whomsoever He willeth, and none may question that which it pleaseth Him to ordain. He is, in truth, the Ever-Forgiving, the Almighty, the All-Praised. 38 (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 37) The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
SC: Not *public* but, ...in the world to come... Ah yes. Let's not forget that traditionally adultery has been punished by stoning. And no, Jesus never explicitly did away with that, He simply refused to uphold a double standard which punished women and let men off scot free. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SC: Not *public* but, ...in the world to come... Ah yes. Let's not forget that traditionally adultery has been punished by stoning. And no, Jesus never explicitly did away with that, He simply refused to uphold a double standard which punished women and let men off scot free. I've heard similar things but I don't think I've ever heard/read a good explanation of exactly was the scope and intent of Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Was he just saving this one woman? Was he abolishing the death penalty for adultery but not for other crimes? Was he abolishing the death penalty altogether? Was he saying that no one should be punished for anything. The original commandment in Leviticus 20 says: [10] If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death In the New Testament, there doesn't seem to much indication one way or another about what happened to the guy in the famous example. So I'm not sure about the gloss you are giving it above. But I guess it makes at least as much sense as any other. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
I've heard similar things but I don't think I've ever heard/read a good explanation of exactly was the scope and intent of Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Dear Gilberto, Well one thing we do know is that it was a woman brought before Jesus (and not the man she presumably committed adultery with.) And that it was men who were about to do the stoning. But whatever Jesus' intention, no Christian has ever enforced the Old Testament law on this matter, whereas they have enforced such Old Testament edicts such as you shall not suffer a witch to live. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've heard similar things but I don't think I've ever heard/read a good explanation of exactly was the scope and intent of Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Dear Gilberto, Well one thing we do know is that it was a woman brought before Jesus (and not the man she presumably committed adultery with.) And that it was men who were about to do the stoning. Sure, but you can't just ASSUME that he just got off scott-free. Maybe he confessed. Maybe they caught him later. Maybe the crowd had *already* caught him, killed him first, and then were going after the woman. You just don't know. But whatever Jesus' intention, no Christian has ever enforced the Old Testament law on this matter, whereas they have enforced such Old Testament edicts such as you shall not suffer a witch to live. I would be surprised. Even today, there are some reconstructionist Christians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
Hello Sandra and Dr. Maneck, Concerning Public Humiliation for Adulterers, as prescribed by the Aqdas: from a previous dialogue: GS: I think I'd heard there was a geometrically increasing fine for adultery but I don't think I'd heard of the public humiliation of adulterers. SM: I'm not sure what Ron is referring to here either. SC: Not *public* but, ...in the world to come... God hath imposed a fine on every adulterer and adulteress, to be paid to the House of Justice: nine mithqals of gold, to be doubled if they should repeat the offence. Such is the penalty which He Who is the Lord of Names hath assigned them in this world; *and in the world to come He hath ordained for them a humiliating torment.* Should anyone be afflicted by a sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto his Lord. He, verily, granteth forgiveness unto whomsoever He willeth, and none may question that which it pleaseth Him to ordain. He is, in truth, the Ever-Forgiving, the Almighty, the All-Praised. 38 (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 37) Ron Replies: I did not just make this up, nor did I simply confuse humiliation in the next world with humiliation in this world. I have read the Aqdas. It is our Most Holy Book and contains our Laws, so I am not willing to let someone else tell me what is in it. It is very short book and I must know for myslef its contents. I quote here from page 200, Note 77: In one of His tablets, Abdul Baha refers to some of the spiritual and social implications of the violation of the laws of morality and, concerning the penalty here described, He indicates that the aim here is to make clear to all that such an action is shameful in the eyes of God and that, in the event that the offence can be established and the fine imposed, the principle purpose is the exposure of the offenders--that they are shamed and disgraced in the eyes of society. He affirms that such an exposure in itself is the greatest punishment. Ron The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Even today, there are some reconstructionist Christians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment. Perhaps, but it has never been done in historical Christianity. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
I would be surprised. Even today, there are some reconstructionist Christians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment. Dear Gilberto, I might add something about Christian Reconstructionalism, at the risk of offending your sensibilities. I think Christian Reconstructionalism is heavily influenced by Islam, though unbeknowngst to its followers. The founder of the Reconstructionalists movement was Rushdoony, an Armenian from the Middle East. Much of what he envisioned for his Christian theocracy, particularly the position of non-Christian minorities, was pretty much modeled on the Ottoman millet system. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Susan, At 04:44 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: Perhaps, but it has never been done in historical Christianity. Christian reconstructionists, or theonomists, are post-millennialists who want to institute Old Testament law, not the principles of the New Testament. They believe that, before Christ will return, the church, which they equate with the kingdom of God, needs to be established. Then, they believe, Christ will return to a victorious church (kingdom). Christian reconstructionism are probably the closest Christian movement to the Taliban. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Christian reconstructionism are probably the closest Christian movement to the Taliban. And to the takfir wa hijr movements in general. In fact, I'm suggesting there may be a historical connection. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Susan, At 06:04 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: And to the takfir wa hijr movements in general. In fact, I'm suggesting there may be a historical connection. The connection you made is interesting. If there is a difference with Takfir wa Hijra, it is in the rejection of violence. Actually, I think that the Christian reconstructionists are a bit closer to the Deobandis (the parent of the Taliban and also Pres. Musharraf's sect). Members of both groups (the Taliban notwithstanding) generally advocate non-violence. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
The connection you made is interesting. If there is a difference with Takfir wa Hijra, it is in the rejection of violence. Dear Mark, I don't think all Reconstructionalists reject violence. In fact some of them support militias and quite a few believe believe in arming themselves to the teeth. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would be surprised. Even today, there are some reconstructionist Christians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment. Dear Gilberto, I might add something about Christian Reconstructionalism, at the risk of offending your sensibilities. When has that stopped you before :) I think Christian Reconstructionalism is heavily influenced by Islam, though unbeknowngst to its followers. The founder of the Reconstructionalists movement was Rushdoony, an Armenian from the Middle East. I think the idea is bigger than any one person. There are a whole host of people who are important figures in the movement. Another name of someone who is also considered a founder is Cornelius Van Til but he is from the Netherlands. I think that given the fact that the Old Testament actually has a whole collection of laws (613 according to the Rabbis) and that one can make Biblical arguments for why one ought to continue to follow those laws, it doesn't seem necessary to blame Islam for Reconstructionism. There are certainly no shortage of fundamentalist Christians who hate Islam but think that the Old Testament is full of wisdom and guidance. I doesn't take alot of imagination to think that implementing the OT would be a good idea. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even today, there are some reconstructionist Christians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment. Perhaps, but it has never been done in historical Christianity. I'm going to be skeptical since I'm generally suspicious of categorical claims like that. I find it really hard to believe that Christians were fine with burning people at the stake but found it out of the question to stone people to such agree that it has NEVER been done. Especially since the punishment is found in the Bible. But if I look for awhile and don't find a counter-example, feel free to mention it to me and I'll be big enough to admit I'm wrong. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
There are certainly no shortage of fundamentalist Christians who hate Islam but think that the Old Testament is full of wisdom and guidance. I doesn't take alot of imagination to think that implementing the OT would be a good idea. Dear Gilberto, Strictly speaking the Reconstructionalists are not Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists are typically Dispensationalists, a position quite the opposite of Reconstructionalism. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
I'm going to be skeptical since I'm generally suspicious of categorical claims like that. I find it really hard to believe that Christians were fine with burning people at the stake but found it out of the question to stone people to such agree that it has NEVER been done. Especially since the punishment is found in the Bible. Dear Gilberto, Well, let me put it this way, I've studied church history for three years mostly during the medieval and early modern period. I've never heard of a case. If I were to look for one though, I would probably look among the more militant anabaptists. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Hi, Susan, At 08:54 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: I don't think all Reconstructionalists reject violence. In fact some of them support militias and quite a few believe believe in arming themselves to the teeth. Some people associated with various factions of the Christian Identity movement advocate violence. However, they are not, strictly speaking, reconstructionists. Christian Identity is basically a combination of postmillennialism and some of the more racist versions of Yahwehism. What the Christian Identity movement and the Christian Reconstructionist movement have in common is their postmillennialism. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
Gilberto, At 09:10 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: Another name of someone who is also considered a founder is Cornelius Van Til but he is from the Netherlands. Van Til's Calvinist presuppositionalism may have influenced Rushdoony to a degree, but Van Til was not an advocate of any version of dominion theology. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Susan, At 09:35 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: Strictly speaking the Reconstructionalists are not Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists are typically Dispensationalists, a position quite the opposite of Reconstructionalism. That was true until recently. However, increasing numbers of fundamentalists, including more fundamentalist pentecostals, are moving over to the reconstructionist side. Typically, they call their views dominionism or, sometimes, kingdom now theology. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Dear Mark, I'm not thinking of Christian Identity. I'm thinking of the some of the Reconstructionalists that were on the Bill Moyer documentary. One of them that was really into guns was Rushdoonie's son-in-law. warmest, Susan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mark A. Foster Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 9:47 PM To: Baha'i Studies Subject: RE: ...a humiliating torment Hi, Susan, At 08:54 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: I don't think all Reconstructionalists reject violence. In fact some of them support militias and quite a few believe believe in arming themselves to the teeth. Some people associated with various factions of the Christian Identity movement advocate violence. However, they are not, strictly speaking, reconstructionists. Christian Identity is basically a combination of postmillennialism and some of the more racist versions of Yahwehism. What the Christian Identity movement and the Christian Reconstructionist movement have in common is their postmillennialism. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Yes. That is Gary North. He has since dissociated himself from Christian reconstructionism and has started associating with Christian Identity types. Yeah, that was the guy I was thinking of. I didn't realize he had gone over to Christian Identity, though I was aware he had broken with Roshdoonie. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are certainly no shortage of fundamentalist Christians who hate Islam but think that the Old Testament is full of wisdom and guidance. I doesn't take alot of imagination to think that implementing the OT would be a good idea. Dear Gilberto, Strictly speaking the Reconstructionalists are not Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists are typically Dispensationalists, a position quite the opposite of Reconstructionalism. Both both the Reconstructionists and Fundamentalists both are a part of Christian efforts to implement a particular vision of Biblical values onto the larger society. They both tend to be a part of the religious Right. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
