!!!! Greetings !!!!

[kong khemara]

Hello,
I am Barr Kong Khemara, I humbly ask if you are related to my client who died 
couple of
years ago in a car accident here in my country Cambodia. I wish to also inquire 
if
it is possible to have different families with the same last name as yours by 
coincidence
who do not share the same common roots? Kindly get back to me if your email is 
still
Valid to enable me give you the details of my message or make headway in my 
search.
Regards,
Kong Khemara
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讲真，您有主动联系您的国外客户吗

[mic3]

  
八年主动式外贸客户开发方案， 
1、客户搜索不设关键词限制，18个全球通用引擎以及220多个国家下800多个区域性搜索引擎，多重信息过滤功能， 为您的客户客户信息搜索在质与量上保驾护航，每天可获取【上万】客户信息. 
2、内置邮件营销模块，可多账号、多主题、多模板、自动切换ip发送邮件， 避免邮件被服务器归类为垃圾邮件，有效提高邮件的到达率，每天可发送【上万】邮件 
3、一对一专属客服为您软件的使用提供充分的保障， 客服人员不仅熟悉软件，还为您提供各种开发搜索技巧以及小语种翻译等等，可以为您在客户开发上提供切实建议 
联系人：欧浩然 
  3218363216  【外贸客户开发是一个需要规划的系统工程，愿携手共进，共创未来！】 
WeChat号：sunsesoftsam 
call  13533563402
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!! GREETINGS !!!

[hassan karam]

Hello

I am Mr. Hassan Karam, from Syria due to brutal civil war in my country, I am 
seeking your
partnership in going into a private investment venture. I am interested in 
investing in your
country, so I will like us to begin our acquaintance through this medium so we 
can deliberate
more.I hope to hear from you soon thanks.

Yours faithfully,
Hassan Karam
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Propisi Crne Gore na jednom mjestu [Paragraf Lex MNE d.o.o.]

[Paragraf]

Title: Paragraf Lex MNE - Newsletter


  
  

  

  Osigurajte se da Vam newsletter uvijek stigne u inbox - dodajte našu adresu u adresar svog e-mail programa  

  
  


  


  

  

  

  

  Ukoliko ne vidite slike ili imate poteškoće sa pregledom newsletter-a kliknite 
  OVDJE   

  
  

  
 

  

  

  

  


  

  


  

   

  
  

  

  

  

  
  
  

  
  

   

  
  

  NAJSADRŽAJNIJA I NAJAŽURNIJA
  PRAVNA BAZA U CRNOJ GORI!   

  
  


  
  

  Paragraf Lex MNE 

  
  

   

  
  

  
  Paragraf Lex MNE
  je elektronska pravna baza koja sadrži sve što je neophodno za zakonito poslovanje, kako u pravnoj i finansijskoj sferi, tako i u drugim sferama rada i poslovanja. 

  
  

   

  
  

  

  
  
  



ISPROBAJTE BESPLATNO!
  
  
  

  

  
  

   

  

  

  

  
  

   

  


  

  

  

  

  

  


  

   

  
  

  Sadržaj pravne baze Paragraf Lex MNE   

  
  

   

  
  

  - Izvorni i prečišćeni tekstovi propisa
  - Službena mišljenja
  - Sudska praksa
  - Strana sudska praksa
  - Modeli

Re: ROXTerm discontinued

[Unknown Crewman]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 07:39:03 +0200 wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 07:28:45 +0200 Unknown Crewman wrote:
> > If I push Ctrl+Alt+T my openbox session launches ROXTerm, if I push
> > Ctrl+Alt+T again it opens a ROXTerm Tab. What command do I need to
> > assign to Ctrl+Alt+T that happens the same when replacing ROXTerm by
> > tmux/xterm. The tmux/xterm helps/man pages are already a PITA.
> 
> IOW the openbox setup is
> 
> [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ grep -B2 -A2
> roxterm .config/openbox/rc.xml 
>   
> roxterm --maximize --tab
>   
> 
> 
> and by roxterm itself the same shortcut is assigned to open a new tab.

Oops, no, I kept the default Ctrl+Shift+T :D, but this anyway doesn't matter ;).

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Re: ROXTerm discontinued

[Unknown Crewman]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 07:28:45 +0200 Unknown Crewman wrote:
> If I push Ctrl+Alt+T my openbox session launches ROXTerm, if I push
> Ctrl+Alt+T again it opens a ROXTerm Tab. What command do I need to
> assign to Ctrl+Alt+T that happens the same when replacing ROXTerm by
> tmux/xterm. The tmux/xterm helps/man pages are already a PITA.

IOW the openbox setup is

[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ grep -B2 -A2 roxterm .config/openbox/rc.xml 

  
roxterm --maximize --tab
  


and by roxterm itself the same shortcut is assigned to open a new tab.

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Re: ROXTerm discontinued

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 05:12:39AM +0200, Unknown Crewman wrote:
> thank you for your replies. Unfortunately I still didn't find a
> replacement for roxterm.

I used to use xterm (way back) until it started having some serious
performance issues, especially scrolling large scrollback buffers and
scrolling lots of text with cat/less etc.

I think it was about that time I got familiar with GNU Screen, and
almost never turned back - only very recently, one screen bug became a
showstopper and so I spent the hours to learn and customize tmux, which
now forever, completely, and very happily, replaces gnu screen for me -
completely configurable in every way one could want ("graphical like"
TUI tabs, identical keystrokes to Firefox (hey don't knock it till you
try it :), single key "new tab" and other functions (again, if that's
how you configure it) - this is a FAST and effective UI!

So then, in about 2008, I used Ubuntu and Gnome-Terminal for a couple of
years, until getting annoyed at that, going back to xterm, and
discovering that thankfully the performance problems had been solved.

AFAICS, TUI is the best when any remote admin is concerned, and so tmux
(the software formerly incarnated as gnu screen) is the bomb! :D

And also, xterm does everything one could need, I would have though -
specify font, fast N-lines batch based scrolling, supports full screen
on a UXGA monitor, and otherwise never fails me.

Of course if you want a tradition GUI type interface (menu bar, GUI tabs
rather than tmux tabs etc), then I guess your option is something other
them xterm?


Good luck,
Zenaan

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ROXTerm discontinued

[Unknown Crewman]

Hi,

thank you for your replies. Unfortunately I still didn't find a
replacement for roxterm.

I know byobu and this is absolutely not what I want, since it's not
just a terminal. Regarding
http://packages.ubuntu.com/yakkety/terminator is just "multiple GNOME
terminals in one window" and GNOME terminal always tried to be, but
never reached, what roxterm is, resp. was. I anyway consider to take a
look at it, perhaps it provides additional differences to GNOME
terminal.

Depending to the install I don't care much about too much unwanted
dependencies

# apt -o APT::Keep-Downloaded-Packages=1 --no-install-recommends install konsole
0 upgraded, 66 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.

but for some installs I do and apart from this qt5 apps don't integrate
well into openbox, because qt5ct doesn't always do it's job.
However, I know konsole.

Close as possible command line compatibility [1] is required by scripts
envoking roxterm. It at least should be possible to write a wrapper
named roxterm, that converts or drops as less options as possible, so
that I don't need to rewrite too many scripts.

My request is more addressed to people who are used to roxterm features
and try to find a replacement, too. It's less addressed to people
with different needs, who anyway prefer other terminals over
roxterm ;). IOW the question isn't what terminal do you like, the
question really is, what terminal could replace roxterm as good as
possible.

Regards,
Ralf

PS: My apologies for breaking the thread.

[1]
$ roxterm --help
Usage:
  roxterm [OPTION...]

Help Options:
  -h, --help   Show help options
  --help-all   Show all help options
  --help-gtk   Show GTK+ Options

Application Options:
  -u, --usage  Show brief usage message
  -d, --directory=DIRECTORYSet the terminal's working directory
  --geometry=GEOMETRY  Set size and/or position of terminal
   according to X geometry specification
  --appdir=DIRECTORY   Application directory when run as a ROX
   application
  --show-menubar   Show the menu bar, overriding profile
  --hide-menubar   Hide the menu bar, overriding profile
  -p, --profile=PROFILEUse the named profile
  -c, --colour-scheme=SCHEME   Use the named colour scheme
  --color-scheme=SCHEMEUse the named colour scheme
   (same as --colour-scheme)
  -s, --shortcut-scheme=SCHEME Use the named keyboard shortcut scheme
  -m, --maximise   Maximise the window, overriding profile
  --maximize   Synonym for --maximise
  -f, --fullscreen Make the initial terminal take up the whole
   screen with no window furniture
  -z, --zoom=ZOOM  Scale factor for terminal's fonts
   (1.0 is normal)
  --separate   Use a separate process to run this terminal
  --replaceReplace any existing process as ROXTerm's
   D-BUS service provider
  -T, --title=TITLESet window title
  -n, --tab-name=NAME  Set tab name
  --tabOpen a tab in an existing window instead of
   a new window if possible
  --fork   Fork into the background even if this is the 
first instance
  --disable-sm Disable session management
  --role=NAME  Set X window system 'role' hint
  --session=SESSIONRestore the named user session
  --no-geometryDon't set window geometry hints. This is a 
workaround for 
  -e, --executeExecute remainder of command line inside the
   terminal. Must be the final option.
  --display=DISPLAYX display to use

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Fw: Support the Libre Tea Computer Card

[Zenaan Harkness]

This looks functional enough to be useful to at least some folks
around here, yet small enough to be doable, and a useful step towards
RYF/libre computing hardware.

I hope they are successful.
Zenaan


- Forwarded message from "Donald Robertson, III, FSF"  -
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:49:59 -0400
From: "Donald Robertson, III, FSF" 
Reply-To: "Donald Robertson, III, FSF" 
Subject: Support the Libre Tea Computer Card

**Read online: 
.**


Dear Mr Zenaan Harkness,

The Earth-friendly EOMA68 Computing Devices project is a crowdfunding
campaign run on Crowd Supply to produce a line of hardware products
that are ecologically responsible and built based on royalty-free,
unencumbered hardware standards. They write:

> "Now imagine if you owned a computing device that you could easily
> fix yourself and inexpensively upgrade as needed. So, instead of
> having to shell out for a completely new computer, you could simply
> spend around US$50 to upgrade — which, by the way, you could easily
> do in SECONDS, by pushing a button on the side of your device and
> just popping in a new computer card. Doesn’t that sound like the way
> it should be?"

[This project][1] certainly sounds appealing, but only if the computer
hardware is designed and configured to run software that does as much
as possible to respect your freedom and ensure your control over your
device. Fortunately, one option you have when backing this project is
to purchase a Libre Tea Computer Card. After working closely with the
developers and reviewing a sample test board, we are confident that
their plans are to create a device that can achieve our [Respects Your
Freedom (RYF)][2] certification.

[1]: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
[2]: https://www.fsf.org/ryf

The project is being developed by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton of
[Rhombus-Tech][3] and is sponsored by Christopher Waid of
[ThinkPenguin][4], a company that sells [multiple RYF-certified
hardware products][2].  It is exciting to see passionate free software
advocates in our community working with OEMs to produce a computer
hardware product capable of achieving RYF certification. We hope that
this is the first of many computing systems they are able to design
and build that respect your freedom.

[3]: http://rhombus-tech.net
[4]: https://www.thinkpenguin.com/

The Libre Tea Computer Card is built with an Allwinner A20 dual core
processor configured to use the main CPU for graphics; it has 2 GB of
RAM and 8 GB of NAND Flash; and it will come pre-installed with
[Parabola GNU/Linux-libre][5], an [FSF-endorsed fully-free operating
system][6].

[5]: https://www.parabola.nu/
[6]: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros

We encourage you to [back the Libre Tea Computer Card][1]. We'll have
to do another evaluation once it is actually produced to be sure it
meets our certification standards, but we have high hopes. Their
funding deadline is August 26th, so don't delay!

Donald Robertson
Copyright & Licensing Associate
-- 
* Follow us at . 
* Subscribe to our RSS feeds at .
* Join us as an associate member at .

Sent from the Free Software Foundation,

51 Franklin St, Fifth Floor
Boston, Massachusetts 02110-1335
UNITED STATES


You can unsubscribe from this mailing list by visiting 

https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/mailing/unsubscribe?reset=1=144946=20563409=01d4bfb3e6e84598.

To stop all email from the Free Software Foundation, including Defective by 
Design,
and the Free Software Supporter newsletter, visit

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- End forwarded message -

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Re: ROXTerm discontinued

[Diogene Laerce]

Hi,

>> On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:55:35 +0200 Unknown Crewman wrote:
>>> has anybody used to ROXTerm an idea, what terminal emulation to use
>>> in the future?

Terminator or Byobu ?

Kind regards,

-- 
“One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings.”
“Le vrai n'est pas plus sûr que le probable.”

  Diogene Laerce


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Re: ROXTerm discontinued

[sp113438]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:55:35 +0200
Unknown Crewman  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> has anybody used to ROXTerm an idea, what terminal emulation to use
> in the future?

Konsole


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Re: borderline OT fireox question

[Ralf Mardorf]

"On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 15:31:28 -0500 (CDT), Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>Midori" -
https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2016-July/272649.html

At least all the times the Mozilla and Mozilla forked browsers slow
down, webkit based browsers are still as fast as lightning. Anyway,
QupZilla is more or less equal to Firfox, Midori is something
completely different compared with Firefox.

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Fw: borderline OT fireox question

[Ralf Mardorf]

"On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 15:31:28 -0500 (CDT), Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>Midori" -
https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2016-July/272649.html

At least all the times the Mozilla and Mozilla forked browsers slow
down, webkit based browsers are still as fast as lightning. Anyway,
QupZilla is more or less equal to Firfox, Midori is something
completely different compared with Firefox.

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Re: Hardware experiences with Alix/RPi/Cubietruck

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 01 feb 16, 08:07:51, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> Hi y'all,
> 
> PC-Engines Alix running fine since 2013, only one CF-card has failed.
> Out of 5 RPi had 3 failing during the last 2 years. Several SD-cards have 
> failed too.

I have 2 RPi running 24/7 since they were available (a 256 MiB and a 512 
MiB model). Also no problem with the SD cards, but they don't see much 
activity besides the usual updates.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic
http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt


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Hardware experiences with Alix/RPi/Cubietruck

[Eike Lantzsch]

Hi y'all,

PC-Engines Alix running fine since 2013, only one CF-card has failed.
Out of 5 RPi had 3 failing during the last 2 years. Several SD-cards have 
failed too.
Cubietruck running fine since 2 years, but a 12V-5V board for the HDD failed 
right in the beginning.

Conclusion = I won't bet my existence on RPi anymore.
Have a spare CF-card with OS installed around.
Backup! Backup! Backup! And have up-to-date disk-images around.

(running Debian Wheezy on Cubietruck and RPi, and running OpenBSD on Alix)

Anybody else like to share experience with tiny one-board-computers?

Cheers
Eike

-- 
Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE


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RE:Any comments by return will be much appreciated / Account Manager/fferfet9e/与您共享了相册。

[RE:Any comments by return will be much appreciated / Account Manager/fferfet9e/]

Dear Sir/Madam

I know you from your great website, and glad to introduce our Child gps  
tracker bracelet


Anti lost smart watch with SOS function, GPS+LBS, ISO /Android APP  
tracking, two-way communication for child/kids/baby (JM90)


Child gps tracker bracelet descriptions:
1. GPS+ Base Station Dual Mode Positioning
2. SOS
3. Electric Fence
4. Anti-dropoff Alarm
5. Low Battery Alarm
6. History-trace checking
7. Two-way Communication
8. Support IE Real-time tracking
9. App Support IOS
10. Interval of sending GPS data,There are three modes available
11. Monitoring Call
12. Watch Message

Hope to hear from you soon.
Best Regards

China,guangdong
Jim

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=113352518691450432601=ALBUM=6194764432426583073=Gv1sRgCNa87r_91un1Zg=CMnOw7YI=email
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Re: mtools

[Ralf]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 11:14:55 +0100 Mark Carroll wrote:
 Ralf unknown.crew...@rocketship.com writes:
  The file is from  mtools  . I wonder what  /usr/bin/tgz  is good
  for.
 
 I don't have mtools installed but it looks like tgz may be something
 like using tar with its -z option: to work with compressed file
 archives.

That's my guess too, but a  tar -czf  does behave different and
especially  tar --help  has got another behaviour.

By meld I compared my $HOME with a backup and excepted of
the created file --help.tgz
and the directories  ./--help*
after running  tgz --help  nothing happened.

On the used machine mtools is installed as optional dependency for
gparted and mc. This isn't a Debian install, the mc and gparted
packages for Debian don't list mtools as depends, recommends,
suggests or enhances, so mtools seems to be quite useless :D.

It seems only to be useful to access floppy disks and ZIP disks,
something that isn't provided by the used machine.

I'll purge it.

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Re: mtools

[Ralf]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 23:26:48 +1000
Zenaan Harkness z...@freedbms.net wrote:

 On 6/14/15, Ralf unknown.crew...@rocketship.com wrote:
  by chance I noticed a file  /usr/bin/tgz  .
  In $HOME I run  $ tgz --help  and a file was generated named
  --help.tgz  .
 
 $ man tgz
 TGZ(1)Mtools Users Manual
   TGZ(1)
 NAME
tgz - makes a gzip'd tar archive
 SYNOPSIS
tgz [ destination [ source ...  ] ]
 DESCRIPTION
Make a gzip'd tar archive with the name of the first parameter
 out of specified
files or, if no source files are specified, from everything in
 the current
directory.  If the first parameter is omitted as well, the
 archive will be
written to stdout.
 BUGS
tgz requires gzip in the user's path.  It also needs gnu tar or
 something close
due to use of --exclude, --totals and -S.
 AUTHOR
Filip Van Raemdonck (mecha...@debian.org) wrote this page for
 the Debian/GNU
mtools package.
 SEE ALSO
gzip(1), tar(1)
 mtools 3.9.8May 2002
   TGZ(1)

Thank you for the man page.

I neither had one installed, nor did I found it in the Internet.

It still doesn't explain the copy directories that were created and that
were no tar.gz files.

Regards,
Ralf

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debian source mirror as git repos

[Zenaan Harkness]

(take 2, with corrected To address)

I use debmirror to mirror a few dist/arch combinations which I find
extraordinarily useful quite regularly.

A few times a year I also update debian source packages into my
mirror pool - when I do a full, source-included debmirror, is the only
time I cleanup the repo of old files. Today is one such time for
including sources. It's not fast on this rural connection.

I notice iceweasel source packages are numerous (eg it's various
translations) and apparently somewhat voluminous. It would seem that a
git repo of iceweasel would mean updating the Debian sources for
Iceweasel would be much less bandwidth consuming (which would be a
good thing).

In thinking about the nature of Debian and its binary packages to
source packages versioning and distribution, could the distribution of
source updates to the Debian mirror network (e.g. for Debian local
mirror junkies like me as well as for those tracking individual
packages) be done with say daily git update packs/bundles, using
something like git send-pack? (Of course, only if there's actually an
update - such updates are not daily, just not more frequent than
daily - update frequency might be maintainer driven, or might be ftp
masters driven.)

It may be that the resultant reduction in (full) source file mirror
network load would provide for additional units other than at most
daily - e.g. weekly and/ or monthly update packs, for those who
mirror update less frequently - although this is perhaps entirely
unnecessary with git-receive-pack just being fed as many daily packs
as there are.

A question/contention that may arise is how to produce deterministic
update packs so that mirrors all match - well, the pack
definitions, if they need to be regenerated, must of course come from
a canonical location - the developer or some debian server, or best to
just define some deterministic algorithm (assuming this is possible)
e.g.:
- a debian git (or scm) update pack is a,
- time period (daily or monthly) bzipped tar file,
- of all commits from the begin moment of the time period inclusive,
- to the begin moment of the subsequent time period exclusive,
- stored sequentially in the Debian scm update pack file

Primary object types in this new Debian source mirror:
- git (or other scm) --mirror (or --bare style) repos
- Debian git (or other scm) update packs

git handles duplicate objects in the case that git-fast-import is
called more than once on the same update pack, and in the case that a
manual git fetch has occurred in the meantime.

Part of the nature of these source mirror repos is that the local
mirror maintainer can just as well add additional remotes to their
debian source mirror repo - this new Debian source distribution
concept simply ensures that a repo designated to store the source for
a particular Debian package, simply has all the appropriate branches,
tags, objects etc. that are needed to build the correspodning binary
package(s). This might imply certain namespace conventions which the
debian repo mirror update utility would assume it can do whatever it
wants with, e.g. all tag names beginning with debian-, all branch
names beginning debian-, all 'remote' names starting with debian-,
and so on.

I'm guessing this has been well and truly thought about by others
actually competent in this area and perhaps it's already almost here -
apologies if this email is too much noise.

Regards,
Zenaan

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Porcia Silvia]

On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 10:55:31 +0200
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:


  What do you mean by useless? Probably 90% of what the human race does is
  useless

 Kind regards,
 Andrei

pointless too

P

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Ric Moore]

On 05/17/2015 12:01 PM, Porcia Silvia wrote:

On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 10:55:31 +0200
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:



What do you mean by useless? Probably 90% of what the human race does is
useless



Kind regards,
Andrei


pointless too


But, there is always room for Jello. Ric

--
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There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
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gitorious is acquired by gitlab

[kamaraju kusumanchi]

Just today, I came to know that gitorious is being acquired by gitlab.

https://about.gitlab.com/2015/03/03/gitlab-acquires-gitorious/

Interested to hear if anyone has thoughts/comments on this topic.

raju
-- 
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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 00:19:34 +1300
 So I was just trying to get Mr Crewman's explanation of useless.

Me, myself, I and Mr. Mardorf are thinking of this:

- electioneering sometimes can change politics
- chain of beacons and Easter marches never changed anything
- civil disobedience always changes the world

When I decided to not join the German armed forces the jail sentence was harder 
than a jail sentence for a child molesters was. IOW to _not accept_ to learn 
how to kill other people, in a country that started both world wars, was a 
harder crime, than fucking a child. Anyway, a lot of people from my generation 
decided not to join the German armed forces.

Btw. we were free to write to an ethics tribunal and beg for doing alternative 
service, for much longer than war service. It was very hard to be accepted by 
this ethics tribunal, others and I were accepted, we were free to do 
alternative service, but we didn't, because doing this meant to accept war 
services. Because others and I chose civil disobedience, that resulted in 
several years of fleeing, without health insurance, without the possibility to 
visit a school or to do legal work (we decided not to go to jail ;), nowadays 
young men aren't forced to join German armed forces or to write to an ethics 
tribunal and beg for doing alternative service anymore.

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Ralf Mardorf]

PS:
Willing to kill people by order, without question that order, was considered as 
right.
Not willing to kill people was considered as wrong.
And that in a nation that started both world wars.
It's too funny. Of course, my live wasn't fun and still isn't.

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 03 mar 15, 15:31:10, Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 04:07:45PM +0100, Unknown Crewman wrote:
 
  I only agree that electioneering often is useless and chain of beacons
  and Easter marches always are useless.
 
 What do you mean by useless? Probably 90% of what the human race does is
 useless
 
Sturgeon's Law?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 04:07:45PM +0100, Unknown Crewman wrote:
 On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:48:25 +1100 Zenaan Harkness wrote:
  All of these (including Occupy) have strong smacks of ineffectual
  all over them.
 
 Yesno, some Occupy folks are people who joined other communities too
 and they seriously attacked Scientology, PayPal and others.

Is that that strange outfit that Tom Cruze is involved with?

What do you mean by seriously attacked?

 I only agree that electioneering often is useless and chain of beacons
 and Easter marches always are useless.

What do you mean by useless? Probably 90% of what the human race does is
useless

 Btw. the 1% super-rich define philanthrope as somebody who does

Never heard of a philanthrope, I've only heard the term Philanthropist.

 everything to get much money and who's willing to spend some of that
 money to help the poor. IOW a philanthrope is somebody who is rich,

Well of course, to give money away you have to have enough to do so.

 that does mean that all those of us who aren't rich are misanthropes.

Of course not!

 Since I'm a German, I'm not allowed to name some of them, if I would do,
 some people would call me an anti-Semite, so I just name somebody who
 isn't a Jew. 

Anyone who thinks that *just because* you're German you're an anti semite
is not worth listening to. 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Unknown Crewman]

On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:48:25 +1100 Zenaan Harkness wrote:
 All of these (including Occupy) have strong smacks of ineffectual
 all over them.

Yesno, some Occupy folks are people who joined other communities too
and they seriously attacked Scientology, PayPal and others.

I only agree that electioneering often is useless and chain of beacons
and Easter marches always are useless.

Btw. the 1% super-rich define philanthrope as somebody who does
everything to get much money and who's willing to spend some of that
money to help the poor. IOW a philanthrope is somebody who is rich,
that does mean that all those of us who aren't rich are misanthropes.
The super-rich slave-drive the poor and then they donate some of the
money they got by slave-driving the poor and at the same time they call
the poor indirectly them misanthropes.

Since I'm a German, I'm not allowed to name some of them, if I would do,
some people would call me an anti-Semite, so I just name somebody who
isn't a Jew. The philanthrope Gates foundation is investing in
Monsanto, IOW even Bill's philanthrope organization is a crime against
ethics.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Unknown Crewman]

PS: The super-rich philanthropists deny to have political impact. They
claim that they only can help by donating money.

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Zenaan Harkness]

On 2/22/15, Unknown Crewman unknown.crew...@rocketship.com wrote:
 On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:52:04 +0200 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 On Jo, 05 feb 15, 18:38:13, Unknown Crewman wrote:
  Off-topic regarding Linux.
  I handle mails from Avaaz av...@avaaz.org as spam, but sometimes
  they have got a point.

 Have you tried unsubscribing?

 No, I want to be informed about the Avaaz activism. Avaaz is harmless
 activism. For my taste it's just too often not smart.

I think Avaaz and GetUp and similar organisations started around the
time the occupy movement got going.

All of these (including Occupy) have strong smacks of ineffectual
all over them. GetUp is definitely politically driven, and I suspect
the others are too.

Most humans readily accept an outspoken 'leader' who promises to
'save the world'.
Thus it is easy to set up the FOG - the False Oppositional Group. The
group that pretends to oppose problems, but is really just a front for
the conservative status quo. And humans keep falling for this over and
over again.

Pretty sad really.

The alternative is accepting that each of us must personally play an
active, if small, part. And that's the problem - 'most humans' are not
willing to play any active part, except possibly adding their email
address to a list signing something.

Oh how I wish someone would do the right thing for once - the bloody
government, the damn GetUps and Avaaz, if they'd just do those things
which actually would much a change to -fix- the problems. They're all
corrupt and in conspiracy with one another, and that's why we have so
many problems - not because I am unwilling to help, but because those
who help themselves to the pig trough keep helping themselves to the
pig trough. They're the ones who are the problem. If only -they- would
stop.

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Du, 22 feb 15, 13:42:47, Unknown Crewman wrote:
 On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:52:04 +0200 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
  On Jo, 05 feb 15, 18:38:13, Unknown Crewman wrote:
   Off-topic regarding Linux.
   
   I handle mails from Avaaz av...@avaaz.org as spam, but sometimes
   they have got a point.
  
  Have you tried unsubscribing?
 
 No, I want to be informed about the Avaaz activism. Avaaz is harmless
 activism. For my taste it's just too often not smart.

Not exactly sure what you mean by handle as spam, but as as far as I 
know marking such mails as spam on Gmail or Yahoo will increase their 
spam score also for other Gmail or Yahoo subscribers.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Ric Moore]

On 02/22/2015 09:17 AM, Reco wrote:

  Hi.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:44:11 +0100
Unknown Crewman unknown.crew...@rocketship.com wrote:


On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:17:14 +0300 Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:

No, I want to be informed about the Avaaz activism. Avaaz is
harmless activism. For my taste it's just too often not smart.


You're saying this as if there was such a thing as a 'smart activism'.


I consider e.g. the following, including the downloads using the MIT access as 
smart:
https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamjuly2008_djvu.txt


And that lead to that story that caused Aaron Swartz to commit suicide,
isn't it? That's hardly a fine example of 'smart activism' thing,
considering the outcome IMO.

It's a good example of 'usual activism', though. Activist is risking
everything, possibly including reputation and (in this case) - own life.
And the profit from the act of activism belongs to other unnamed persons
and organizations, as usual.


You might check out the Moral Monday movement in north Carolina. 
People are going to jail as political resistance, Folks are putting 
themselves on the line in order to be heard. :) Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Ric Moore]

On 02/22/2015 03:02 PM, Reco wrote:

  Hi.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:15:57 +1300
Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:


On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 05:17:24PM +0300, Reco wrote:

  Hi.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:44:11 +0100
Unknown Crewman unknown.crew...@rocketship.com wrote:


On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:17:14 +0300 Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:

No, I want to be informed about the Avaaz activism. Avaaz is
harmless activism. For my taste it's just too often not smart.


You're saying this as if there was such a thing as a 'smart activism'.


I consider e.g. the following, including the downloads using the MIT access as 
smart:
https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamjuly2008_djvu.txt


And that lead to that story that caused Aaron Swartz to commit suicide,
isn't it? That's hardly a fine example of 'smart activism' thing,
considering the outcome IMO.


You can't control what actions another person decides to take.


I'm not sure I understand your statement.
I as a current self - of course I don't control any actions of anyone.
But things such as neuro-linguistic programming or plain old
blackmailing clearly show that such control is possible, at least to
some degree.



It's a good example of 'usual activism', though. Activist is risking
everything, possibly including reputation and (in this case) - own life.


That would be an extreme case, in my view.


Why? Greenpeace activists fit this scenario perfectly.
Protests against nuclear plants do the same.
To recall most recent such scenario - Euromaidan.

I'm not saying it's a good thing (nor I'm saying that it's a normal
thing), but I cannot consider it extreme too. It happens way too often.


Just look at our out-of-control Get Tough On Crime effort. A LOT of 
people were made afraid of marauding INSANE criminals who used to be 
securely hospitalized in the past, until the same politicians closed the 
state mental health centers, sold off the land and buildings, and left 
the severely mentally challenged to wander free, while not mentally 
free, with predictable results.


Then Law Enforcement had to man-up with body armor, big guns, armored 
troop carriers, etc. in response to someone severely mentally ill who 
can open fire in a school or movie theater. THEN the electorate laid 
down, and accepted the notion that increased personal security 
outweighed national Civil Liberty. Tell me fear doesn't work. :/ Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Reco]

 Hi.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:02:26 -0500
Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 02/22/2015 09:17 AM, Reco wrote:
Hi.
 
  On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:44:11 +0100
  Unknown Crewman unknown.crew...@rocketship.com wrote:
 
  On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:17:14 +0300 Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:
  No, I want to be informed about the Avaaz activism. Avaaz is
  harmless activism. For my taste it's just too often not smart.
 
  You're saying this as if there was such a thing as a 'smart activism'.
 
  I consider e.g. the following, including the downloads using the MIT 
  access as smart:
  https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamjuly2008_djvu.txt
 
  And that lead to that story that caused Aaron Swartz to commit suicide,
  isn't it? That's hardly a fine example of 'smart activism' thing,
  considering the outcome IMO.
 
  It's a good example of 'usual activism', though. Activist is risking
  everything, possibly including reputation and (in this case) - own life.
  And the profit from the act of activism belongs to other unnamed persons
  and organizations, as usual.
 
 You might check out the Moral Monday movement in north Carolina. 
 People are going to jail as political resistance, Folks are putting 
 themselves on the line in order to be heard. :) Ric

I did checked this. I have one question, as I'm living far from North
Carolina, and such details are hard to see from here.
Wikipedia article mentions that 'Members of the protest movement meet
Monday to protest n action by the North Carolina legislature and then
enter the legislature building. Once they enter, a number are
peacefully arrested each Monday'.

Apparently, one for the movement leaders is rev. William Barber. Did he
got arrested at least once? A wikipedia article only mentions trial in
which he apparently took part.

And, I have another question. I agree that those people are doing a good
thing, but how exactly their activism is smart, in your option?

Reco

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Ric Moore]

On 02/22/2015 02:48 PM, Reco wrote:

  Hi.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:02:26 -0500
Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com wrote:


On 02/22/2015 09:17 AM, Reco wrote:

   Hi.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:44:11 +0100
Unknown Crewman unknown.crew...@rocketship.com wrote:


On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:17:14 +0300 Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:

No, I want to be informed about the Avaaz activism. Avaaz is
harmless activism. For my taste it's just too often not smart.


You're saying this as if there was such a thing as a 'smart activism'.


I consider e.g. the following, including the downloads using the MIT access as 
smart:
https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamjuly2008_djvu.txt


And that lead to that story that caused Aaron Swartz to commit suicide,
isn't it? That's hardly a fine example of 'smart activism' thing,
considering the outcome IMO.

It's a good example of 'usual activism', though. Activist is risking
everything, possibly including reputation and (in this case) - own life.
And the profit from the act of activism belongs to other unnamed persons
and organizations, as usual.


You might check out the Moral Monday movement in north Carolina.
People are going to jail as political resistance, Folks are putting
themselves on the line in order to be heard. :) Ric


I did checked this. I have one question, as I'm living far from North
Carolina, and such details are hard to see from here.
Wikipedia article mentions that 'Members of the protest movement meet
Monday to protest n action by the North Carolina legislature and then
enter the legislature building. Once they enter, a number are
peacefully arrested each Monday'.

Apparently, one for the movement leaders is rev. William Barber. Did he
got arrested at least once? A wikipedia article only mentions trial in
which he apparently took part.


Yes, one of the Moral Monday videos on youtube, shows him being cuffed 
and stuffed. Our Non-Profit is partnered with the NC-NAACP on many 
projects and I have met Dr. Barber more than once. He IS the real deal. 
He is a big man and once in motion he's hard to stop!



And, I have another question. I agree that those people are doing a good
thing, but how exactly their activism is smart, in your option?


The Moral Monday movement is quick to include everyone. You'll see as 
many whites as you would minorities. Gays and Straights. The Poor and 
the Nouveau Poor. Being a Pastor, every once in awhile he'll interrupt 
and ask if he can preach. Then all Old Testament Hell breaks loose where 
the disfavor of the LORD is called down on those who know not the Sermon 
On The Mount. I am more of a secular humanist, but if by preaching the 
Wrath of the Lord, he shakes up those inside of the Legislature 
Building, Sobeit. cackles One thing is for sure, no one gets in front 
of the Good Doctor when he's moving forward. One step forward, not one 
step back is the mantra. So, when tens of thousands show up in front of 
the NC Legislature Building on designated Monday's, it is awesome. BTW, 
when they arrested so many, they had to toss the cases out of court. 
That is real, for me. Check out the videos. Then you can draw your own 
perceptions.


So, I am very proud that the Moral Monday Movement is showing the rest 
of the world just how to shake up things in a responsible manner. Ric


p/s I keep getting on the NAACP to get in on the Open Source movement, 
just so Intellectual Slavery is no longer an issue in the future.


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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Re: OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Unknown Crewman]

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015 15:21:40 +0100 Jochen Spieker m...@well-adjusted.de wrote:
 Unknown Crewman:
  Off-topic regarding Linux.
 Chain letters are off-topic on -offtopic as well, I think.

http://avaaz.org/en/ doesn't send chain letters. Human rights might be OT for 
Debian OT. But it's not a chain letter. As pointed out before, I don't agree 
with http://avaaz.org all the times, but sometimes they've got a point. IMO the 
Benneton thingy is a point and valid for an off-topic list.

My apologies, I thought that human rights might be ok for the OT list. I will 
not send something like that again.

Regards,
Ralf Mardorf

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OT: Our clothing kills - [Fwd: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich]

[Unknown Crewman]

Off-topic regarding Linux.

I handle mails from Avaaz av...@avaaz.org as spam, but sometimes they have 
got a point.

The English link:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/benetton_pay_up_loc/?cTrXNab

The German mail I received provides evidence by German press. Unfortunately all 
links are from 2014.

Perhaps it's worth to sign.

I signed :)

Thanks for taking action -- now let’s ramp it up!

Regards,
Ralf Mardorf

 Forwarded Message 
From: Dalia Hashad - Avaaz av...@avaaz.org
To: ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net
Subject: Unsere Kleidung ist tödlich
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 11:16:46 -0500

Liebe Freundinnen und Freunde,



Eine achtstöckige Textilfabrik ist eingestürzt und hat Tausende von Menschen 
lebendig begraben. Nach diesem Albtraum soll ein bahnbrechendes 
Entschädigungsprogramm die Unternehmen zur Rechenschaft ziehen. Doch ein 
Unternehmen, und zwar Benetton, zahlt nicht ― es sei denn wir sorgen für ein 
PR-Desaster. Klicken Sie jetzt, um mitzumachen:

in nur 90 Sekunden ist eine achtstöckige Textilfabrik in Bangladesch 
eingestürzt und hat 1134 Menschen in den Tod gerissen. Um sich zu befreien, 
haben sich einige der Überlebenden sogar Gliedmaßen abgesägt. Nach diesem 
Albtraum will die UNO mit einem bahnbrechenden Programm die Opfer entschädigen 
und Unternehmen zur Rechenschaft ziehen ― und es zeigt Wirkung. Doch ein 
beteiligtes Unternehmen stellt sich quer und wir können es jetzt zur Kasse 
bitten. 

Der milliardenschwere italienische Mode-Gigant Benetton weigert sich, die Opfer 
zu entschädigen, die seine Kleidung hergestellt haben. Damit ist Benetton die 
einzige große Weltmarke, die erwiesenermaßen beteiligt war, ihren Beitrag aber 
nicht leistet. Benetton ignoriert die Überlebenden und wird damit durchkommen, 
solange es seinem Ruf nicht schadet. Und genau da kommen wir ins Spiel.

Benetton bereitet sich gerade auf die Mailänder Modewoche vor ― das Highlight 
des Jahres in der italienischen Modewelt. Dies ist unsere Chance, für einen 
riesigen PR-Skandal zu sorgen. Klicken Sie, um Benetton aufzufordern, 
Entschädigung zu zahlen und das Programm zu retten. Wenn wir eine Million 
Unterschriften erreichen, sorgen wir für eine ordentliche Blamage während der 
Modewoche. Unterzeichnen Sie jetzt:

https://secure.avaaz.org/de/benetton_pay_up_loc/?bTrXNabv=53168

Normalerweise kehren multinationale Konzerne solchen Katastrophen einfach den 
Rücken zu. Doch damit ist Schluss. Zum ersten Mal hat das unter Aufsicht der 
UNO erstellte Rana Plaza Arrangement die wichtigsten Beteiligten an einen 
Tisch geholt: die Regierung Bangladeschs, Hersteller, Einzelhändler aus aller 
Welt und Organisationen für Arbeitsrecht. Und wenn der Plan aufgeht, könnte er 
eine neue Ära für Unternehmensverantwortung und Arbeiterrechte einläuten und 
dafür sorgen, dass Lieferketten unter die Lupe genommen werden. Doch wenn 
Benetton auf das Abkommen pfeift, werden andere Unternehmen nachziehen. So 
würde diese Chance verstreichen, einen Präzedenzfall für die Opfer zu schaffen.

Benetton ist die einzige große Weltmarke mit erwiesenen Verbindungen zu Rana 
Plaza, die nicht mitzieht. Während die Profite des Unternehmens im Jahr des 
Fabrikeinsturzes bei 139 Millionen Euro lagen, behauptet Benetton, es habe eine 
unbekannte Summe an eine Wohltätigkeitsorganisation vor Ort gespendet und damit 
seine Pflicht erfüllt. Doch Wohltätigkeit ist nicht mit gerechter Entschädigung 
gleichzusetzen. Tatsache ist, dass Unternehmen fahrlässig gehandelt haben und 
eigentlich zur Entschädigung verpflichtet sein sollten. Doch zumindest sollten 
sich die Firmen, die in diese Tragödie verwickelt waren, gezwungen sehen, zu 
dem freiwilligen Entschädigungsfonds beizutragen.

Für Benetton und andere große Einzelhändler geht der Ruf über alles ― setzen 
wir also da an, wo’s wehtut. Je mehr von uns unterzeichnen, desto deutlicher 
wird unsere Nachricht an den Geschäftsführer von Benetton sein. Machen Sie 
jetzt mit, um Gerechtigkeit für die Überlebenden von Rana Plaza zu fordern und 
verbreiten sie dann die Aktion:

https://secure.avaaz.org/de/benetton_pay_up_loc/?bTrXNabv=53168

Wir wissen, wie man riesige Unternehmen zum Handeln zwingt. Nach dem 
Fabrikeinsturz hat unsere Gemeinschaft Massen in Bewegung gesetzt, um führende 
Modemarken wie HM dazu zu bringen, ein Gebäude- und Brandschutzabkommen zu 
unterzeichnen, damit nicht noch mehr Menschen an Profitgier zugrunde gehen. Tun 
wir es jetzt noch einmal, um eine faire Entschädigung für die Familien zu 
fordern, die immer noch auf Hilfe warten.

Voller Hoffnung,

Dalia, Oliver, Emily, Risalat, Mais, Ricken und das ganze Avaaz-Team

WEITERE INFORMATIONEN:

Die Schande von Rana Plaza (Zeit online)
http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2014-04/rana-plaza-jahrestag-hilfsfonds

Die Frauen von Rana Plaza kämpfen immer noch um Entschädigung (Tagesspiegel)
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/ein-jahr-nach-dem-hochhauseinsturz-in-bangladesch-die-frauen-v...

Faire Mode ist möglich (Zeit 

Re: How to compare/diff recursively owner and group of directories?

[Unknown Crewman]

On Mon, 12 Jan 2015 20:15:12 +1100 David bouncingc...@gmail.com wrote:
 echo $BASH_VERSION ; find --version ; diff --version

$ echo $BASH_VERSION
4.3.33(1)-release

$ find --version
find (GNU findutils) 4.4.2

$ diff --version
diff (GNU diffutils) 3.3

Perhaps I'll write a scrip using ls tonight or tomorrow.

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How to compare/diff recursively owner and group of directories?

[Unknown Crewman]

Hi,

any idea how to check recursively, if the owner and group of a directory and 
it's content differs to an directory and it's content from a backup?

I made a mistake and it's unlikely that owner and group of any file or 
directory changed, but it's not impossible, so I want to compare everything 
with a backup directory.

diff/find?

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: How to compare/diff recursively owner and group of directories?

[Unknown Crewman]

On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:54:00 -0800 David Christensen wrote:
 On 01/11/2015 04:47 AM, Unknown Crewman wrote:
  any idea how to check recursively, if the owner and group of a
  directory and it's content differs to an directory and it's content
  from a backup? I made a mistake and it's unlikely that owner and
  group of any file or directory changed, but it's not impossible, so
  I want to compare everything with a backup directory. diff/find?
 
 One idea would be a shell one-liner pipeline using find, sort, xargs, 
 stat, and/or cut, run once for each tree, put the output into text 
 files, and then diff the text files.  Here's an StackExchange thread 
 that discusses sorting in the face of filenames containing spaces:

Thank you,

my idea was similar, I was thinking about using ls and cut and perhaps 
something else and then compare both trees (files) using meld, since meld seems 
to be smarter regarding files that are just in one of both trees (files), than 
diff is. Sometimes diff becomes unreadable.

 Another option is Perl. [snip] You could hack it up to check
 uid and gid for directories and files

Maybe or maybe not, since I never used Perl. It's likely to risky.

I didn't take a look at the links yet, but I will do so soon.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: How to compare/diff recursively owner and group of directories?

[David Christensen]

On 01/11/2015 01:38 PM, Unknown Crewman wrote:

my idea was similar, I was thinking about using ls and cut and perhaps 
something else and then compare both trees (files) using meld, since meld seems 
to be smarter regarding files that are just in one of both trees (files), than 
diff is. Sometimes diff becomes unreadable.


Yes -- 'ls' with '-l' and '-R' should be straight-forward.


David


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Happy New Year! Was: Skipping fsck during boot with systemd?

[Unknown Crewman]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2014 13:22:57 -0500, Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com
wrote:
 On 12/30/2014 05:58 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
  On Lu, 29 dec 14, 01:22:27, Ric Moore wrote:
 
  Can we not let this pitiful excuse for a thread JUST DIE?? :/ Ric
 
  Posting to it certainly won't help ;)
 
 There is that! Which is why I posted to offtopic where threads never 
 die, they just fade away, like an old soldier.
 
 Happy New Years to you sorry lot! cackles :) Ric

You might be right, I didn't follow this thread, OTOH we reached a
state where conformity of the communities is over individuality and
individuality usually is blamed with insults and Linux history is
rewritten, corrected to the new style, just one of the oddest
examples, there are tons of others too:

Linux has never been about ‘choice’ or ‘freedom’ and those myths should
just die out.

Read:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html;
- http://allanmcrae.com/2014/12/pacman-4-2-released/#comment-1256

Actually I use Linux (kernel and user space software) because it at
least _was_ about manifoldness and libre (FLOSS).
   ^L is for libre

Regards and a Happy New Year!
Unknown Crewman, aka Ralf Mardorf

PS: There was a time when systemd checked some partitions with each
startup ;), again and again and again and ... :D.

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Re: Happy New Year! Was: Skipping fsck during boot with systemd?

[Ric Moore]

On 01/03/2015 09:16 AM, Unknown Crewman wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2014 13:22:57 -0500, Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com
wrote:

On 12/30/2014 05:58 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 29 dec 14, 01:22:27, Ric Moore wrote:


Can we not let this pitiful excuse for a thread JUST DIE?? :/ Ric


Posting to it certainly won't help ;)


There is that! Which is why I posted to offtopic where threads never
die, they just fade away, like an old soldier.

Happy New Years to you sorry lot! cackles :) Ric


You might be right, I didn't follow this thread, OTOH we reached a
state where conformity of the communities is over individuality and
individuality usually is blamed with insults and Linux history is
rewritten, corrected to the new style, just one of the oddest
examples, there are tons of others too:

Linux has never been about ‘choice’ or ‘freedom’ and those myths should
just die out.

Read:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html;
- http://allanmcrae.com/2014/12/pacman-4-2-released/#comment-1256

Actually I use Linux (kernel and user space software) because it at
least _was_ about manifoldness and libre (FLOSS).
^L is for libre

Regards and a Happy New Year!
Unknown Crewman, aka Ralf Mardorf

PS: There was a time when systemd checked some partitions with each
startup ;), again and again and again and ... :D.


So did UNIX, with 250 pound drives. I had 4 of those in my Unisys 
5000/90 toy-to-play-with mini-mainframe. They fsck'd endlessly. Then the 
tape drives had to sync. I loved watching them whirr about. It was one 
heckuva toy! :) Ric




--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: Happy New Year! Was: Skipping fsck during boot with systemd?

[Unknown Crewman]

On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 14:50:32 -0500, Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 01/03/2015 09:16 AM, Unknown Crewman wrote:
  There was a time when systemd checked some partitions with each
  startup ;), again and again and again and ... :D.
 
 So did UNIX, with 250 pound drives. I had 4 of those in my Unisys 
 5000/90 toy-to-play-with mini-mainframe. They fsck'd endlessly. Then
 the tape drives had to sync. I loved watching them whirr about. It
 was one heckuva toy! :) Ric

And nowadays we have drives in our home computers that exceeded the borderline 
to 2 TiB. Until now all my drives are around = 1.8 TiB, since I like to use 
MBR ;). The really good and really sane style to check partitions every now and 
again nowadays could be a PITA, nowadays we need another control mechanism to 
check our drives. Nowadays a single partition easily could be as large as more 
than 250 HDDs were a few years ago.
I suspect your 68xxx family computers from the 90s used drives with less 
capacity than a home computer used 10 years ago. JFTR my 68xxx based computer 
has got a SCSI HDD that is around 40 MiB. It isn't a Sperry Unisys 5000, just 
an Atari ST :). I still own it, since it isn't as large as a refrigerator. I 
know the Sperry Unisys refrigerator (heaters might be a better analogy) only 
from photos.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Happy New Year! Was: Skipping fsck during boot with systemd?

[Unknown Crewman]

On Sun, 4 Jan 2015 00:13:45 +0100, Unknown Crewman wrote:
 68xxx family
 refrigerator (heaters might be a better analogy)

5 volt technology, often already provided by switching power supplies. IIRC it 
was around 1999/2000 when CPUs stopped needing high voltage.

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Re: Skipping fsck during boot with systemd?

[Ric Moore]

On 12/30/2014 05:58 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 29 dec 14, 01:22:27, Ric Moore wrote:


Can we not let this pitiful excuse for a thread JUST DIE?? :/ Ric


Posting to it certainly won't help ;)


There is that! Which is why I posted to offtopic where threads never 
die, they just fade away, like an old soldier.


Happy New Years to you sorry lot! cackles :) Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: Fwd: Re: Skipping fsck during boot with systemd?

[Ric Moore]

On 12/29/2014 03:04 PM, William Unruh wrote:


Now imagine it is a 20 min inconvenience, not a 20 sec. That is what
happens if the partition is say a 2TB partition.


I wrote that a one TB drive took around 20 seconds.


Your argument style is very strange. You say Windows behaves horribly so
we should expect Linux to behave that way as well. And then you minimize
the problem.


What?? I said that they had to go down for hours every night at 3AM. So, 
20-30 seconds of annoyance, once in a blue moon if you use ext4, is our 
tradeoff for file system maintenance.



It is a valid concern, and the answer is neither to give up on Linux, or
to just say suck it up. It is to make systemd as responsive and
configurable as one can.


Horse apples. fsck has been with us since the dawn of UNIX (1). Are you 
saying that after almost every file has been wiped and replaced by a 
dist-upgrade from wheezy to jessie, where it is almost a guarantee that 
every file size has changed, that an fsck ISN'T in order after the file 
system took that MASSIVE pounding?? I would think that if it didn't 
happen someone would take a drubbing. I fail to see where systemd is 
even an issue here. So, the average Joe or Jane Lunchbucket Debian user 
should be able to cntl C the process that might save his file system?? 
And, that we need more complexity?


Again, every google search on interrupt fsck said Don't Do It!
Where's the beef?? A rule of thumb, automate where you can make 
mistakes.


Faster file system checking

In ext4, unallocated block groups and sections of the inode table 
are marked as such. This enables e2fsck to skip them entirely on a check 
and greatly reduces the time it takes to check a file system of the size 
ext4 is built to support.

http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/24727/significant-difference-in-speed-between-fsck-using-ext3-and-ext4-on-debian-squee

There ya have it.
Use ext4 (or ZFS with scrub, which is run on a live file system).
Automate where you can make mistakes.
Don't interrupt fsck. If it is forced to run, it knows better than you 
why. :) Ric


(1) http://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/unix/FsckHistory


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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issue with latest jessie upgrade

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 07:51:04AM +0100, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
 Although systemd is coming to Debian, currently one gets to choose and 
 until now I have chosen the old tried and true init.  
 I recently bought new kit and loaded Debian Jessie without specifying 
 which init system I wanted and so am now using systemd.  So far, no 
 worries.  Even though I dislike its 'one-size-fits-all philosophy, I 
 think  it might do wonders for Linux in the long run.  

I just upgraded my jessie system yesterday, besides having trouble with
apt moaning about https is not a valid transport and asking if
apt-transport-https was installed (which it wasn't). I couldn't install
it because apt then complained about jessie not being a default release,
WTF! That may have been caused by this line:

deb http://repo.tox.im/deb/ testing main

in the file:

/etc/apt/sources.list.d/toxrepo.list

which I've commented out, but only after I ...

# cp /usr/lib/apt/methods/http /usr/lib/apt/methods/https

then apt-get update worked! \o/
(That's when I also got complaints about the 'http://repo.tox.im/deb/'
repo.)
I then 'rm /usr/lib/apt/methods/https' followed by 
'apt-get install apt-transport-https'

(I also commented out 'APT::Default-Release jessie;' in the file
/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/90local I *think* before the apt-get update)

Then I apt-get upgrade, which took a while, BUT after all that my gpm
console mouse was no longer working BUT a simple

'/etc/init.d/gpm' stop followed by  '/etc/init.d/gpm start'

got it going again. PHEW!!


I searched the web looking for any stuff regarding apt-transport-https
needing to be installed, nothing recently, and no posts on debian-user,
so whether anyone who struck it just did what I did or whether it was
the http://repo.tox.im/deb/ repo casuing it,I don't know.

Don't know whether to post this to debian-user, or just carry on as
thought nothing has happened.  whistle innocently :)

I initially thought changes had been made to the apt behaviour which
caused all this, but seeing nothing on the web or on debian-user made me
doubt that was the case.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

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HELLO

[Mis simbi Aja]

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explain more about myself then send you my photos for you to see how i look 
like,i need a truth love 
your new friend
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Entertainment: The most funniest spam ever

[Unknown Crewman]

From: ITunesap...@itunes.com
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Subject: Confirm Your Apple ID
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 17:34:17 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.
[snip]

They ask me to confirm my Apple ID, sent with Outlook Express. Wow,
what a faux pas :D.

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re:WYPALL Wipes,Sontara Wipes,Heavy Duty Wipers

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10-13 May 2016
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Re: rather OT - was - Re: Latin joke, was Re: running two CPU's in parallel with e.g. Beowulf in the same box.....

[Joel Rees]

erk

On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
 n Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 On Jo, 20 nov 14, 18:16:24, Joel Rees wrote:
 2014/11/20 15:17 Bret Busby bret.bu...@gmail.com:
 
  [...]
  Interesting that the allusion to awk and sed, missed the mark, on this
 list...
 
  :)
  [...]

 Just too pre-occupied to respond, although my memory is that the names were
 chosen in part for those puns.

 Haven't been following that thread, care to elaborate?

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/11/msg01213.html

 Although you might want to start from Lisi's original post, if you
 have a few minutes to kill.

Lisi's post was actually two further down:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/11/msg01217.html

-- 
Joel Rees

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Re: rather OT - was - Re: Latin joke, was Re: running two CPU's in parallel with e.g. Beowulf in the same box.....

[Joel Rees]

n Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Jo, 20 nov 14, 18:16:24, Joel Rees wrote:
 2014/11/20 15:17 Bret Busby bret.bu...@gmail.com:
 
  [...]
  Interesting that the allusion to awk and sed, missed the mark, on this
 list...
 
  :)
  [...]

 Just too pre-occupied to respond, although my memory is that the names were
 chosen in part for those puns.

 Haven't been following that thread, care to elaborate?

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/11/msg01213.html

Although you might want to start from Lisi's original post, if you
have a few minutes to kill.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart,
and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well.

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Re: Installing an Alternative Init?

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Du, 16 nov 14, 15:32:58, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 
 My mental image about Debian and FOSS is more of an eco-systemd, where 
 ^^
 survival of the fittest applies.
 
That typo is just too funny :p

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic
http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt


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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Joel Rees]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 10/27/2014 03:50 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

 On Vi, 24 oct 14, 22:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:


 Are you interested in learning programming?


 I've had some classes about basics of programing (using BASIC as
 example) and I even started going through some Python tutorial once, but
 never got too far. I guess I don't want it badly enough at the moment ;)

 Kind regards,
 Andrei


 I feel your pain. I gave up when they took the line numbers out of BASIC. :)
 Ric

Ever tried assembly language?

-- 
Joel Rees

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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Ric Moore]

On 10/27/2014 03:50 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Vi, 24 oct 14, 22:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:


Are you interested in learning programming?


I've had some classes about basics of programing (using BASIC as
example) and I even started going through some Python tutorial once, but
never got too far. I guess I don't want it badly enough at the moment ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei


I feel your pain. I gave up when they took the line numbers out of 
BASIC. :) Ric




--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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RE:New Windows

[sales]

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Hi Dearest one, How are you doing today i hope all is well with you, I am Miss Ababoya Cavaly living in Côte D'Ivoire.Though I have not met with you before but I believe one has to risk confident in s

[ababoya cavaly]

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Re: Debian fork

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

Debian is impressive! I really like it.

I'm rebuilding the Xen LiveCD (https://github.com/tmartinx/xenlivecd)
using Jessie with `live-build` to build it.

I'll take a look into PureBlends!

Currently, `live-build` doesn't build a live session powered by
`sysvinit-core`, only `systemd` works okay with it...   :-/

Cheers!
Thiago

On 23 October 2014 02:45, Zenaan Harkness z...@freedbms.net wrote:
 On 10/23/14, Don Armstrong d...@debian.org wrote:
 On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Joel Rees wrote:
 If the debian community is not unfriendly to a fork (particularly as
 an alternative to the acrimony about systemd), why would some
 discussion here be inappropriate?

 Because the fork would no longer be Debian, and it has nothing to do
 with the support of Debian. Debian has lots of forks and derivatives,
 but they were formed by people actually sitting down and doing the work,
 not agitating for the fork/derivative on Debian mailing lists.

 Ack.

 And besides, there are plenty(1) of options(2) which are a far better
 way to go than a full fork.

 (1) https://wiki.debian.org/DebianPureBlends
 (2) https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives

 Option (1) is preferable, even with some custom packages, to minimize work.

 At some number of custom packages/ rebuilds, your blend would
 effectively be a instance of one of the many variants listed at (2).

 Further guidance/ suggestions:

 (3) https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Guidelines

 Working together, is almost always preferable to separating from or
 worse working against.

 Enjoy,
 Zenaan

 --
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 10:15:00AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
 
 perl got mentioned several times in that thread, do you understand the
 reasons I would have been trolling if I had (as I was tempted) posted
 a simple
 
 #! /usr/local/perl -T
 
 as a response to one of the early posts?

Because Perl is actually packaged by Debian?

-- 
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 06:22:30AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:01 AM, Andrei POPESCU
 andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Mi, 22 oct 14, 07:08:51, Chris Bannister wrote:
  On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 01:56:36AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
  
   I was actually curious about the expression entangled monolith, which
   doesn't make sense at all for me, but then I'm not a native English
   speaker. In my understanding this doesn't even qualify as a pleonasm.
 
  Maybe an oxymoron?
 
  Assuming entangled assumes there are some modules that are entangled,
  then yes :)
 
 Ever seen a ball of yarn?

Yes. I doubt systemd is full of spagetti code though.

-- 
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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 10:29:13AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
 (Sorry about double-pumping a couple of posts.)
 
 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Andrei POPESCU
 andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Mi, 22 oct 14, 06:22:30, Joel Rees wrote:
 
  Ever seen a ball of yarn?
 
  Yep. Disentangled a few. Not a monolith. :)
 
 Ever considered the molecular structure of obsidian, marble, or granite?
 
 Pushing the metaphor a bit far, but then so is my question about yarn,
 and so was your question about a monolith being entangled.
 
 While I'm on the subject, diamond's hardness is derived in great part
 from the interconnection between the crystals. But that's still not
 really the kind of hardness we want in an init system.

Mixing one's metaphors and analogies can quickly get you climbing up the
wrong ladder.

-- 
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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Scott Ferguson]

On 23/10/14 18:48, Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 10:29:13AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
 (Sorry about double-pumping a couple of posts.)

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Andrei POPESCU
 andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mi, 22 oct 14, 06:22:30, Joel Rees wrote:

 Ever seen a ball of yarn?

 Yep. Disentangled a few. Not a monolith. :)

 Ever considered the molecular structure of obsidian, marble, or granite?

 Pushing the metaphor a bit far, but then so is my question about yarn,
 and so was your question about a monolith being entangled.

 While I'm on the subject, diamond's hardness is derived in great part
 from the interconnection between the crystals. But that's still not
 really the kind of hardness we want in an init system.
 
 Mixing one's metaphors and analogies can quickly get you climbing up the
 wrong ladder.
 
... or hurt your back from constantly moving goalposts


Kind regards

--
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Joel Rees]

2014/10/23 16:48 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz:

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 10:29:13AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
  (Sorry about double-pumping a couple of posts.)
 
  On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Andrei POPESCU
  andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
   On Mi, 22 oct 14, 06:22:30, Joel Rees wrote:
  
   Ever seen a ball of yarn?
  
   Yep. Disentangled a few. Not a monolith. :)
 
  Ever considered the molecular structure of obsidian, marble, or granite?
 
  Pushing the metaphor a bit far, but then so is my question about yarn,
  and so was your question about a monolith being entangled.
 
  While I'm on the subject, diamond's hardness is derived in great part
  from the interconnection between the crystals. But that's still not
  really the kind of hardness we want in an init system.

 Mixing one's metaphors and analogies can quickly get you climbing up the
 wrong ladder.

Depends on what's guiding your selection and interpretation.

I'm wondering, Andrei, about your declining to name a favorite or familiar
programming language. You say you've written some short scripts. Do any of
them have an on-line existence?

--
Joel Rees

Computer memory is just fancy paper,
CPUs just fancy pens.
All is a stream of text
flowing from the past into the future.
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Jo, 23 oct 14, 19:50:54, Joel Rees wrote:
 
 So, you aren't the Andrei Popescu associated with, among other things,
 
 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/hvg/Isabelle/  ?

Nope. My name would translate to something like Andrew Smith, so I guess 
you can imagine there are quite a few other people with the same name. 
Did get a few job offers due to this confusion though ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Mi, 22 oct 14, 10:15:00, Joel Rees wrote:
 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Andrei POPESCU
 
  Sysvrc is anything but transparent to me. It consists of a bunch of
  shell scripts that are beyond my understanding.
 
 Why?
 
Because I'm not that good with shell scripting.

  And don't tell me shell
  scripting is easy,
 
 It takes getting used to, sure. I'm not all that used to it, but
 writing a few scripts of my own tells me the strange conditional
 syntax is not a barrier to recognizing conditionals as conditionals.
 (Well, it was for a couple of years, early on. I'll grant that.)

I'm not even familiar enough with it to present you with a few nasty 
examples :)

 BTW, what languages do you program in?

Mmm, shell? But I'm not sure the small scripts I've written count as 
programming.

 perl got mentioned several times in that thread, do you understand the
 reasons I would have been trolling if I had (as I was tempted) posted
 a simple
 
 #! /usr/local/perl -T
 
 as a response to one of the early posts?
 
As shebang for initscripts? Yes, I can think of a few reasons. Would 
have been funny though.

  and just about anyone agrees that beyond a
  certain size it's much better to rewrite the thing in a real programming
  language.
 
 Well, size is not the first criterion I'd use, but, yeah. I'm not sure
 if your reasons are the same as mine, however. Not ceding your
 assertion that *sh is not a real programming language, just that the
 primary init processes are mostly not things you want being
 interpreted by a large and not-well-defined shell language.

I don't understand what you mean here.

 On the other hand, as I'm trying to point out here, I wouldn't want
 Python, perl, Ruby, Haskell, etc. being the execution environment for
 my pid 1, if I were going to have an interpreter executing init as a
 script. Even bash would be preferable.

I don't follow. How can an interpreter be the execution environment for 
pid 1? That would mean the interpreter is pid 0 :p
Even if one boots with init=/bin/bash, that means bash is pid 1 (the 
classic root password recovery technique).

  Systemd unit configuration files are much more understandable for me.
 
 You think they are. The primate looking at the monolith thought it was
 understandable, no?
 
 (Big. Black. Doesn't move. Ignore it. Oh. Nice bone.)

Mmm, I'm not sure how to respond to this... I'll just ignore it.

  I've found everything I needed in the manpages
 
 So far.

FUD?

  and if the behaviour is
  not as documented I know how to file bugs. In comparison initscripts are
  not documented at all except for code comments (look at the source?
  when was this ever considered good documentation).
 
 There are still people around who think that Code should be self
 documenting. has little to do with being able to strip the comments
 from before a function header and put them in a man page. (I am one of
 those.)
 
I prefer real documentation ;)

  Systemd *is* FLOSS
 
 In whose opinion?
 
 Can you restrict the interpretation of free/libre/open-source software
 to a single meaning and it still be either free or libre, or even
 open?

I have no ideea what you mean here.

  and I'm quite sure that being such a central piece in
  so many distributions has already attracted many eyeballs.
 
 Have you looked at the code?
 
 Do you understand it?

Nope, I don't know much about C.

  Many more
  than your average initscript.
 
 Your average initscript does significantly less than systemd.
 
 Hmm. Are you implying that you are under the impression that
 /sbin/init is a script?

No.

  Is systemd (the project) tightly integrated?
 
 And when you started jesting about how could something monolithic be
 entangled with itself, I thought you were arguing that it couldn't be
 tightly integrated with itself.
 
  Yes, nobody is disputing
  this. Is it *too* tightly integrated? Many have argued yes and that a
  loosely integrated design would have been better. I'm not even
  disagreeing with this view. However, so far there's no real contender
  for systemd:
 
 Well, I'm just saying that, as a principle of engineering, if I were
 presented with the option between systemd and not using computers, I'd
 say, what option?
 
We'll see.

 Did upstart need sysvinit code to be present, or was that as a
 safety-net? (Not that it seems relevant to me. It doesn't.)

No, it just installs itself as /sbin/init, which means it has to 
conflict with sysvinit. Systemd installs itself as /lib/systemd/systemd 
and one can either boot with init=/lib/systemd/systemd or replace 
/sbin/init with a symlink.

 Two or so years ago, Andrei, you helped me get started with debian.
 Thanks. Even though I'm arguing these points with you, I do appreciate
 your help.

This argument *on the right mailing list* is very interesting for me.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Debian fork

[Ric Moore]

On 10/22/2014 10:41 AM, Don Armstrong wrote:

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Joel Rees wrote:

If the debian community is not unfriendly to a fork (particularly as
an alternative to the acrimony about systemd), why would some
discussion here be inappropriate?


Because the fork would no longer be Debian, and it has nothing to do
with the support of Debian. Debian has lots of forks and derivatives,
but they were formed by people actually sitting down and doing the work,
not agitating for the fork/derivative on Debian mailing lists.


Can I have an amen? I really want to learn more about systemd from other 
users. I see a lot of rants but zero constructive tips. Darn tooting it 
will be a LOT for a 65 year old brain to absorb. So, I'm just starting 
on my own, which is a damn shame. I do see it has some potential to 
solve some of the problems I run into with clustering regarding hardware 
state, hot-swapping, and reboot on failure . Ric




--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: Debian fork

[Holger Levsen]

Hi Ric,

On Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2014, Ric Moore wrote:
 Can I have an amen? I really want to learn more about systemd from other
 users. I see a lot of rants but zero constructive tips.

try https://wiki.debian.org/systemd for a start :)


cheers,
Holger


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Re: Debian fork

[Zenaan Harkness]

On 10/23/14, Don Armstrong d...@debian.org wrote:
 On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Joel Rees wrote:
 If the debian community is not unfriendly to a fork (particularly as
 an alternative to the acrimony about systemd), why would some
 discussion here be inappropriate?

 Because the fork would no longer be Debian, and it has nothing to do
 with the support of Debian. Debian has lots of forks and derivatives,
 but they were formed by people actually sitting down and doing the work,
 not agitating for the fork/derivative on Debian mailing lists.

Ack.

And besides, there are plenty(1) of options(2) which are a far better
way to go than a full fork.

(1) https://wiki.debian.org/DebianPureBlends
(2) https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives

Option (1) is preferable, even with some custom packages, to minimize work.

At some number of custom packages/ rebuilds, your blend would
effectively be a instance of one of the many variants listed at (2).

Further guidance/ suggestions:

(3) https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Guidelines

Working together, is almost always preferable to separating from or
worse working against.

Enjoy,
Zenaan

-- 
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yet understand) Debian, for suggesting Debian's C.o.Conduct is being
swung in our faces a little too vigorously.

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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Joel Rees]

2014/10/21 7:56 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com:

 On Ma, 21 oct 14, 07:46:14, Joel Rees wrote:
  2014/10/21 4:12 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com:
  
   On Ma, 21 oct 14, 03:00:59, Joel Rees wrote:
   
Would one expect the parts of a monolith to refrain from knowing
too much
about each other?
  
   How can a monolith have different parts?
 
  Well, that's kind of the whole point with monolithic software.
 
  Things that should have parts, effectively, don't.

 I'm not questioning whether it should or not have parts.

  In other words, you can't separate the parts out and work with them
  individually without being very careful about the side-effects of the
  changes you're making.
 
  But surely you know that?
 
  (I wouldn't think this OT, but I'll respect your choice.)

 I was actually curious about the expression entangled monolith, which
 doesn't make sense at all for me, but then I'm not a native English
 speaker. In my understanding this doesn't even qualify as a pleonasm.

Words are funny creatures. So are ideas. But that doesn't help explain, I
suppose.

I think it's less a matter of English, and more a matter of how much you
may have studied/been indoctrinated in the concepts of semantic
entanglement/linkage. Or, perhaps, of your opinions concerning the size of
the set of NP complete problems.

Well, there are cultural biases. I've sure found a lot of Japanese
programmers who write C that looks more like CoBOL. And when I try to
explain the necessity of keeping a clean symbol space, they think first in
terms of declaring all the (global) variables at the top of the file so
everyone knows what they are.

Anyway, if you think about Ric's comment about the movie 2001, well, the
monolith is not subject to being taken apart and analyzed. Dave's
interaction with it is pretty much passive. 2001 is a great movie, very
thought provoking. But I think it encourages a passive attitude towards
things one doesn't understand.

I'm not much in favor of that attitude.

--
Joel Rees

Computer memory is just fancy paper,
CPUs just fancy pens.
All is a stream of text
flowing from the past into the future.
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 23:46:03, Ric Moore wrote:
 
 I will posit, from the threads I've read, that someone could make more than
 pocket change by branding pitch-forks and torches with Debian on them.
 Then we'd only need to recruit the geeks willing to riot. Imagine that! That
 might be preferable to the ~endless~ dialogs. Just burn something down! Go
 for the GOLD ...if you want page hits, fame and glory!

In my experience many of the people that are so loud on-line are quite 
shy in real life. Somehow the anonymity of the internet allows them to 
express themselves. Which is good and bad at the same time :)

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 01:56:36AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 
 I was actually curious about the expression entangled monolith, which 
 doesn't make sense at all for me, but then I'm not a native English 
 speaker. In my understanding this doesn't even qualify as a pleonasm.

Maybe an oxymoron?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Mi, 22 oct 14, 07:08:51, Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 01:56:36AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
  
  I was actually curious about the expression entangled monolith, which 
  doesn't make sense at all for me, but then I'm not a native English 
  speaker. In my understanding this doesn't even qualify as a pleonasm.
 
 Maybe an oxymoron?

Assuming entangled assumes there are some modules that are entangled, 
then yes :)

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Mi, 22 oct 14, 06:22:30, Joel Rees wrote:
 
 Ever seen a ball of yarn?

Yep. Disentangled a few. Not a monolith. :)

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Joel Rees]

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Ma, 21 oct 14, 16:55:08, Joel Rees wrote:

 Anyway, if you think about Ric's comment about the movie 2001, well, the
 monolith is not subject to being taken apart and analyzed. Dave's
 interaction with it is pretty much passive. 2001 is a great movie, very
 thought provoking. But I think it encourages a passive attitude towards
 things one doesn't understand.

 I'm not much in favor of that attitude.

 Me neither, but at least as far as I'm concerned:

 Sysvrc is anything but transparent to me. It consists of a bunch of
 shell scripts that are beyond my understanding.

Why?

 And don't tell me shell
 scripting is easy,

It takes getting used to, sure. I'm not all that used to it, but
writing a few scripts of my own tells me the strange conditional
syntax is not a barrier to recognizing conditionals as conditionals.
(Well, it was for a couple of years, early on. I'll grant that.)

 I've been following the bash exorcism thread on
 -devel

sigh /

 and few other references provided on -user (Unix standards
 getting quoting wrong?)

Wrong?

In whose opinion? (This is the question you should be asking, and, no,
the answer is not POSIX, nor is it debian Policy, neither is it any
name at all. The correct answer is a bit longer than that.)

BTW, what languages do you program in?

perl got mentioned several times in that thread, do you understand the
reasons I would have been trolling if I had (as I was tempted) posted
a simple

#! /usr/local/perl -T

as a response to one of the early posts?

 and just about anyone agrees that beyond a
 certain size it's much better to rewrite the thing in a real programming
 language.

Well, size is not the first criterion I'd use, but, yeah. I'm not sure
if your reasons are the same as mine, however. Not ceding your
assertion that *sh is not a real programming language, just that the
primary init processes are mostly not things you want being
interpreted by a large and not-well-defined shell language.

On the other hand, as I'm trying to point out here, I wouldn't want
Python, perl, Ruby, Haskell, etc. being the execution environment for
my pid 1, if I were going to have an interpreter executing init as a
script. Even bash would be preferable.

 Systemd unit configuration files are much more understandable for me.

You think they are. The primate looking at the monolith thought it was
understandable, no?

(Big. Black. Doesn't move. Ignore it. Oh. Nice bone.)

 I've found everything I needed in the manpages

So far.

 and if the behaviour is
 not as documented I know how to file bugs. In comparison initscripts are
 not documented at all except for code comments (look at the source?
 when was this ever considered good documentation).

There are still people around who think that Code should be self
documenting. has little to do with being able to strip the comments
from before a function header and put them in a man page. (I am one of
those.)

 Systemd *is* FLOSS

In whose opinion?

Can you restrict the interpretation of free/libre/open-source software
to a single meaning and it still be either free or libre, or even
open?

 and I'm quite sure that being such a central piece in
 so many distributions has already attracted many eyeballs.

Have you looked at the code?

Do you understand it?

 Many more
 than your average initscript.

Your average initscript does significantly less than systemd.

Hmm. Are you implying that you are under the impression that
/sbin/init is a script?

 Is systemd (the project) tightly integrated?

And when you started jesting about how could something monolithic be
entangled with itself, I thought you were arguing that it couldn't be
tightly integrated with itself.

 Yes, nobody is disputing
 this. Is it *too* tightly integrated? Many have argued yes and that a
 loosely integrated design would have been better. I'm not even
 disagreeing with this view. However, so far there's no real contender
 for systemd:

Well, I'm just saying that, as a principle of engineering, if I were
presented with the option between systemd and not using computers, I'd
say, what option?

 Upstart has buried itself from the start (the weird upside-down
 dependency model, the CLA,

I'm not really familiar with the history of upstart. I know I had bad
experiences with it at some point.

 and the Debian Maintainer's insistence to
 replace sysvinit instead of allowing parallel installation and booting
 with some init= parameter).

Did upstart need sysvinit code to be present, or was that as a
safety-net? (Not that it seems relevant to me. It doesn't.)

 OpenRC seems interesting, but it's far from being ready for a
 distribution like Debian. Same with others, like daemontools, runit,
 etc. that are even present in the archive, yet not enough people have
 seriously considered switching to them.

I am aware that testing those would take time. I'm not particularly
enthusiastic about any of them, but 

Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Joel Rees]

(Sorry about double-pumping a couple of posts.)

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mi, 22 oct 14, 06:22:30, Joel Rees wrote:

 Ever seen a ball of yarn?

 Yep. Disentangled a few. Not a monolith. :)

Ever considered the molecular structure of obsidian, marble, or granite?

Pushing the metaphor a bit far, but then so is my question about yarn,
and so was your question about a monolith being entangled.

While I'm on the subject, diamond's hardness is derived in great part
from the interconnection between the crystals. But that's still not
really the kind of hardness we want in an init system.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart,
and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself.

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Re: Debian fork

[Joel Rees]

(Deliberately including listmaster.)

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:29 AM, Don Armstrong d...@debian.org wrote:

 This thread is off topic for -user. If you want to discuss this further,
 please use
 http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic.

 If you want more information about systemd, see 
 https://wiki.debian.org/systemd.

 If you want to avoid using systemd, simply don't install the
 systemd-sysv package. If something requires systemd-sysv and doesn't
 have an alternative dependency on systemd-shim, please file a bug using
 reportbug if one hasn't already been filed.

 If you wish to discuss forking Debian, please do so using non-project
 resources.

I don't know, Don.

If the debian community is not unfriendly to a fork (particularly as
an alternative to the acrimony about systemd), why would some
discussion here be inappropriate?

In my opinion, what should have happened two years ago was a parallel
fork of the same sort as kfreebsd, allowing systemd to be worked on by
people who want it to work. And then the necessary adjustments overall
to keep the two compatible could have been made in a much more
cooperative atmosphere.

Now I find I'm sorry I was too polite to jump into debian-devel as a
debian newb, to try to encourage that kind of thinking back then. (Not
that I necessarily think I could have made that much difference.)

I think the success with bash = dash may have made many in the
community take the changes here too lightly, both from the managerial
point of view and the engineering?

-- 
Joel Rees

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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Joel Rees]

2014/10/20 23:07 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com:

 On Sb, 18 oct 14, 01:12:11, Steve Litt wrote:
 
  Whoa guys, slow down on the generalizations. Don't assume everyone uses
  KDE4. Two years ago I kicked KDE, in its entirety, libraries and all,
  off all my computers. It's an entangled monolith and a danger to
  computing.

 I must be misunderstanding something, but how can a monolith be
 entangled (in itself if I understood the meaning of the above)?

Hi, Andrei,

Can I turn the question upside down?

Would one expect the parts of a monolith to refrain from knowing too much
about each other?

--
Joel Rees

Computer memory is just fancy paper,
CPUs just fancy pens.
All is a stream of text
flowing from the past into the future.
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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Ric Moore]

On 10/20/2014 03:11 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Ma, 21 oct 14, 03:00:59, Joel Rees wrote:


Would one expect the parts of a monolith to refrain from knowing too much
about each other?


How can a monolith have different parts?


Oh lord, and here I am waiting for my pain-med refill. :) Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Fwd: Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Ric Moore]

I keep forgetting to use reply-list.

 Forwarded Message 
Subject: Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of 
init systems]

Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:13:06 -0400
From: Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com
To: Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com

On 10/20/2014 02:00 PM, Joel Rees wrote:

2014/10/20 23:07 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com
mailto:andreimpope...@gmail.com:
 
  On Sb, 18 oct 14, 01:12:11, Steve Litt wrote:
  
   Whoa guys, slow down on the generalizations. Don't assume everyone uses
   KDE4. Two years ago I kicked KDE, in its entirety, libraries and all,
   off all my computers. It's an entangled monolith and a danger to
   computing.
 
  I must be misunderstanding something, but how can a monolith be
  entangled (in itself if I understood the meaning of the above)?

Hi, Andrei,

Can I turn the question upside down?

Would one expect the parts of a monolith to refrain from knowing too
much about each other?


With regards to the 2001 monolith, it knew EVERYTHING, including the
answer to 42. We still haven't progressed much from the ape with a
thighbone, where the answer to What? is smash! :) cackles Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256




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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Joel Rees]

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 5:14 AM, Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 10/20/2014 03:11 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

 On Ma, 21 oct 14, 03:00:59, Joel Rees wrote:


 Would one expect the parts of a monolith to refrain from knowing too much
 about each other?


 How can a monolith have different parts?


 Oh lord, and here I am waiting for my pain-med refill. :) Ric

Thanks for the good-morning chuckles. :)

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart,
and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself.

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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Ric Moore]

On 10/20/2014 06:56 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Ma, 21 oct 14, 07:46:14, Joel Rees wrote:



(I wouldn't think this OT, but I'll respect your choice.)


What's OT on an OT list?? :)


I was actually curious about the expression entangled monolith, which
doesn't make sense at all for me, but then I'm not a native English
speaker. In my understanding this doesn't even qualify as a pleonasm.



Maybe they mean monopoly?

In Economics 101 the thesis regarding the fall of capitalism is when a 
significant fortune becomes big enough, it starts to absorb smaller 
fortunes around it. Then, when the size of the fortune becomes vast 
enough, it absorbs all fortunes, ergo systemd is evil and to be feared. 
Yes, that is a leap, but it seems to be the crux of the systemd argument 
against; that it not monopolize Debian/Linux.


Of course economic failure results in the rioting and looting bit, which 
all of our US police departments are already preparing for when they 
acquire weapons of mass destruction, that we wouldn't allow the Iraqis 
to have.


But, I digress and retreat back to my original opinion that monopoly 
might be a better word.


I will posit, from the threads I've read, that someone could make more 
than pocket change by branding pitch-forks and torches with Debian on 
them. Then we'd only need to recruit the geeks willing to riot. Imagine 
that! That might be preferable to the ~endless~ dialogs. Just burn 
something down! Go for the GOLD ...if you want page hits, fame and glory!


I wonder if Stallman would lead them and smash a 3 1/2 floppy, on 
camera, to symbolize software FREEDOM?? And, do it in front of the New 
York Stock Exchange, where the cops are less than humorous. As Prince 
proclaimed, Let's get crazy! :) Ric


p/s I got my pain meds!
p/p/s I still have no clue as to the anti Red Hat crowd. They were great 
to work for and the people there are no different from the people here. 
They work hard at making the experience better for their users. And, 
then they can make more money by doing so.


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: Entangled monolith? [was: Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems]

[Zenaan Harkness]

This won't get through to d-c-o@l.a.d.o since I'm banned for life, but
anyway (and feel free to forward if you think it's on-topic for the
offtopic list :)


On 10/21/14, Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 10/20/2014 06:56 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 On Ma, 21 oct 14, 07:46:14, Joel Rees wrote:

 (I wouldn't think this OT, but I'll respect your choice.)

 What's OT on an OT list?? :)

Grounds for the thread of banning, that's what.

No! Even more! Grounds for threatening to ban the entire offtopic
mailing list, that's what.

Color me cynical hey? Guilty as charged.

...
 I will posit, from the threads I've read, that someone could make more
 than pocket change by branding pitch-forks and torches with Debian on
 them. Then we'd only need to recruit the geeks willing to riot. Imagine
 that! That might be preferable to the ~endless~ dialogs. Just burn
 something down! Go for the GOLD ...if you want page hits, fame and glory!

Or if you wanna be banned for life :)

Very, apt, shall I say.


 I wonder if Stallman would lead them and smash a 3 1/2 floppy, on
 camera, to symbolize software FREEDOM?? And, do it in front of the New
 York Stock Exchange, where the cops are less than humorous. As Prince
 proclaimed, Let's get crazy! :) Ric

Yeah! Occupy computing - bring it on!

Zenaan

-- 
Banned for life from Debian, for suggesting Debian's
C(ode)o(f)C(onduct) is being swung in our faces a little too
vigorously.

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Good evening

[Monica Suwayd]

--
Hello
Good evening, I'm Monica Suwayd I would have like to have some
discussion with you. If you don't mind. Please let me know if my letter
is welcome. Regards Monica Suwayd.
.

Hola
Buenas noches, soy Monica Suwayd me hubiera gustado tener un debate con
usted. Si no te importa. Por favor, hágamelo saber si mi carta es
bienvenida. Saludos Monica Suwayd.

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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

[Linux-Fan]

On 09/16/2014 03:27 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
 Jonathan Dowland wrote:
 On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 08:24:07PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
 Precisely. Bugs and user difficulties produced by innumerable
 dependencies have nothing to do with Debian-Users, it's merely an
 interesting discussion for developers.
 ISTM that such threads - with people who are actually using systemd
 asking for
 help with actual problem using systemd - are easiest spotted because
 Michael
 Beibl or Tollef contribute a useful answer. But such threads seem to
 be less
 than 1 in 10 of the systemd threads on this list, the remainder
 decidedly not
 fitting into the above categorisation.

 That might better be framed as 1 in 10 POSTS in systemd threads
 
 As far as I can tell, most systemd related thread start out with either:
 a. a question about systemd impact, or,
 b. a report of a problem or impact caused by systemd
 c. a question about how to avoid running systemd
 
 After, maybe a couple of direct responses, each thread then degenerates
 into
 c. general discussion of systemd, it's developers, etc.
 
 And then degenerates further, into
 d. arguments about whether systemd is a legitimate topic on this list.

[...]

There is one type to add which creates the largest and most fruitless
discussions:

Threads starting with
e. a link or statement about systemd without much comment which results
in much discussion because it is somehow wrong.

In this (worst) case, it would be good to remember
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Linux-Fan

-- 
http://masysma.lima-city.de/



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Re: Bibletime encoding problem

[Joel Rees]

ouch.

2014/09/05 19:45 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz:

 On Fri, Sep 05, 2014 at 04:56:49AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
  Johann Spies wrote:
  [...]
  The project home pages appear to be
  http://www.bibletime.info/
  and
  https://sites.google.com/site/bibledit/

 According to thine package description:

... thy package description

 bibletime-data - Documentation and data for bibletime, a bible study tool
 does that not help thou?

Doth it help thee not?

Mmmm, no, that isn't quite right. Punt:

Art thou not holpen thereby?

 Perhaps, if thou produced any error messages help might be forthwith a
 bit more quickly.

Mayhap, hadst thou shown the incurred error message thou mightest
be helped forthwith.

:)

Joel Rees

Computer memory is just fancy paper,
CPUs just fancy pens:
All is a stream of text
flowing from the past into the future.

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Re: Choose your side on the Linux divide

[Joel Rees]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 3:05 AM, AW debian.list.trac...@1024bits.com wrote:
 On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 02:10:28 +0900
 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:

   think system

 Off topic... on topic... and unthinking...

 systemd has already won.  Fork sysvinit or don't.  End of comment. Forever. 
 For
 me... and leaving behind this useless mailing list -- too much spam.

 Take it as you like.  However, I'm out.  I need to attend to other things than
 responding to children.

For real.

I tried to send him something like the following off-list, but the
account has been deleted at 1024bits.com . That's too bad, and it
means I feel obligated to post this as a sort of open letter to people
who see themselves as technical advocates:

---
To those who want to advocate systemd
(and those who advocate against should consider this, as well),

About your advocacy, you've picked the wrong thing to advocate.

There are good things to advocate.

Take, for instance, the argument of vi vs. emacs. That was a matter of
the facts that

  * some people work more easily with modal interfaces
  * and some work more readily with modeless,
  * and some peoplework more effectively with memorizing commands
and options,
  * and some are more efficient with memorizing semi-mnemonic
control-key combinations.

Emacs vs. vi was a good debate to use to get to know people by, although
MacWrite effectively won that war for most people.

Gnome vs. XFCE vs. fwm, etc.? That's a debate that is still live, and
still a valid topic to discuss preferences that go beyond reason on.

Needing to be able to check dependencies in boot order? That's a
given, no need to argue for or against it. But it's not a show-stopper bug,
and the present solutions all seem to be trying to do things that don't
lead to determinate solution.

The ways to check? That's a topic that should be open for discussion.
In fact, that is the topic that is central to the problem here. But Lennart
Poettering wants to control the conversation, and we can't talk about
approaches that could work.

And the problem still is not a show-stopper bug, because Android is
either a separate distro or a wrapper that should work on any distro,
and it is done all wrong relative to free and open engineering principles
(so much for Google's Do no evil. mantra).

The existence of Android does not raise the importance of the daemon
interdependency bug any more than the LIMO blasphemy or any of the
other so-called phone-centric (but really power-hungry TELCO-centric)
OSses.

There is definitely no reason to emulate the control-all attitude of the
current crop of TELCO-wannabees. (Bell, as a corporation, sort of
understood the responsibility that comes with control, up until the
break-up.)

That's the primary problem with systemd. It is trying to control too much.
Not in any idealistic sense, but in a technical sense. The solutions to
the problems of control that have to be used when they try that all lead
to non-deterministic results.

And there is a way to handle the dependency graphs and the monitoring
problems and so forth, that use small, independent, replaceable parts
that work well and that can be restrained to deterministic execution paths
with a little care on the system administrator's part.

And there is no way to avoid requiring the system administrator or owner
of the machine to make some decisions, even though those decisions
can be helped along. Not helped by the pid 1 process, but helped external
tools that can run in userland.

People who want to advocate anything technical in the Linux community
need to have a good grasp of logic. That includes such things as
understanding the basic fallacies of argumentation, avoiding them, and
especially refraining from projecting your own errors of logic on others'
arguments.

Otherwise, your attempts to advocate turn themselves upside down and
you just end up poisoning the conversation. Not just poisoning the well,
but the entire conversation.

Common fallacies, for those who need pointers:

  * jumping to conclusions,
  * arguing by false hypothesis,
  * inferring false parallels,
  * inverting logical implications,
  * poisoning the well,
  * etc.

As for your topic of advocacy, choose well.

If you want to advocate systemd, do not follow the lead of the project
leaders. They argue logic against itself, hoping that their arrogance
will be mistaken for hubris. And they don't understand the real
processes that have made their baby the darling of RedHat, et. al.

Or if they have figured it out, they prefer the false logic of money to
the true pride of owning up to their mistakes. At least, I can't figure out
any other reason for some of the bad engineering and bad engineering
management I've seen in evidence here.

Speaking of which, they seem to prefer to have the conversation itself
poisoned. That is, they don't seem to care whether the means they use
to win their war have any 

Re: Choose your side on the Linux divide

[Andre N Batista]

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 12:31:27AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
 On 8/27/14, David Guntner da...@guntner.com wrote:
  On 8/26/2014 1:52 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
  On Tue, 26 Aug 2014 04:06:19 -0400
  Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:44 PM, Steve Litt
  sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
 
  http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/choose-your-side-the-linux-divide-248950?source=IFWNLE_nlt_daily_pm_2014-08-25
 
  There's a OT list for this BS.
 
  Hey Tom H,
 
  When I start posting about my cat, or my car, or who I'll vote for for
 
  But the endless pissing contest about systemd is great/evil is
  pointless, *particularly* on the Debian-USER list.
 
 Absolutely David! I totally agree that we should encourage
 as many people as possible to join the debian-devel list and
 launch systemd (and other) pissing contest threads.
 
 For the entertainment value alone it's worth it!
 
 :)

Say it will be for pure objective abstract personaless scientific
purposes.

We shall see how debian-devs react to the new wave of threads and
disruptive replies.

 ...
  If we have to, all it is is a statement that there are too many
  inconsiderate people on the list who don't care that they're
  offtopic.
 
 I find it, difficult to disagree.
 
 But I think your idea to send em all to debian-devel an
 excellent one.
 
 
  Back to mostly-lurking mode for now. :-)
 
 Oh come on! We won't have a bar of *that* now.
 
 Your suggestions are what I want to hear more of.
 So, be bold! Be agreesive! Embrace your inner goat.
 
 You know you love it...
 
 :D

Otherwise, someone could do us a favor of writing a supercrashing
warmtrojansybilsmurf to bring machines using it to it's knees, thus
ending up the debate, hopefully?


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Re: Choose your side on the Linux divide

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 12:00:35PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com wrote:
  On 08/26/2014 05:21 PM, AW wrote:
 
  Info on the think system...
  http://members.shaw.ca/trishmau/thinksystem/musicman.htm
 
  Have fun.
 
  I am SO stealing that! Ric
 
 Ah, the irony.
 
 Follow up, if anyone dares, on off-topic, not on user.

Well, that took a while!!  Well, done!

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

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Re: Choose your side on the Linux divide

[Joel Rees]

On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 08/26/2014 05:21 PM, AW wrote:

 Info on the think system...
 http://members.shaw.ca/trishmau/thinksystem/musicman.htm

 Have fun.

 I am SO stealing that! Ric

Ah, the irony.

Follow up, if anyone dares, on off-topic, not on user.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful where you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart.

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Fw: James Mickens on security

[John R Song]

I found this on the Gnupg mailing list and it describes some of my experience
in attempting to describe the use of public and private keys to my peers (all
in our seventies) You may find it amusing. 

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 11:05:19 -0400
From: Robert J. Hansen r...@sixdemonbag.org
To: gnupg-us...@gnupg.org
Subject: James Mickens on security


Microsoft Research's James Mickens wrote several humorous columns for 
USENIX in which he interspersed brilliant insights with side-splitting 
humor.  I just found his This World We Live In, which has a good bit 
about PGP in it.  You can find his original at:

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/thisworldofours.pdf


[C]onstructing a public-key infrastructure is incredibly difficult in 
practice.  When someone says 'assume that a public-key cryptosystem 
exists,' this is roughly equivalent to saying 'assume that you could 
clone dinosaurs, and that you could fill a park with these dinosaurs, 
and that you could get a ticket to this Jurassic Park, and that you 
could stroll throughout this park without getting eaten, clawed, or 
otherwise quantum entangled with a macroscopic dinosaur particle.'  With 
public-key cryptography there's a horrible, fundamental challenge of 
finding somebody, *anybody*, to establish and maintain the 
infrastructure.  For example, you could enlist a well-known technology 
company to do it, but this would offend the refined aesthetics of the 
vaguely Marxist but comfortably bourgeoisie hacker community who wants 
everything to be decentralized and who non-ironically believes that Tor 
is used for things besides drug deals and kidnapping plots. 
Alternatively, the public-key infrastructure could use a decentralized 
'web of trust' model; in this architecture, individuals make their own 
keys and certify the keys of trusted associated, creating chains of 
attestation.  'Chains of Attestation' is a great name for a heavy metal 
band, but it is less practical in the real, non-Ozzy Osbourne-based 
world, since I don't just need a chain of attestation between me and 
some unknown, filthy stranger -- I also need a chain of attestation *for 
each link in that chain*.  This recursive attestation eventually leads 
to fractals and H.P. Lovecraft-style madness.  Web-of-trust 
cryptosystems also result in the generation of emails with incredibly 
short bodies (e.g., 'R U gonna be at the gym 2nite?!?!?!?') and 
multi-kilobyte PGP key attachments, leading to a packet framing overhead 
of 98.5%.  PGP enthusiasts are like your friend with the 
ethno-literature degree whose multi-paragraph email signature has 
fourteen Buddhist quotes about wisdom and mankind's relationship to 
trees.  It's like, I GET IT.  You care deeply about the things that you 
care about.  Please leave me alone so that I can ponder the 
inevitability of death.

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[no subject]

[Martin Weise]

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[OT] on wording of computer messages [was: Re: systemd fails to poweroff - A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER]

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 12 aug 14, 12:51:12, Paul E Condon wrote:
 I interpret the quoted string in the Subject: header as being flawed
 use of English language. 'stop' should be 'stopped'. And, there is a
... 
 In a better formulated message, there should be a comma ',' between
 'user' and '$USER'. Thus if the USER of Session 2 is Joe, the message
 should read (adding a full stop at the end):
 
 A stopped job is running for Session 2 of user, Joe.
 
 But even this is poorly worded. A job that is both running, and
 stopped is a goofy idea, as well as somewhat verbose. Maybe it should
 be:
 
 A stopped job exists for Session 2 of user, Joe.

As a non-native speaker of English I understood the message as being 
about a job that tries to stop something, hence a stop job. Also, the 
comma definitely feels wrong. If anything that I'd rather put a colon, 
but it's still quite understandable for me like it is.

Kind regards,
Andrei
P.S. CC and Reply-to: -offtopic as this is not very relevant to Debian
-- 
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Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic
http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt


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Re: [OT] on wording of computer messages [was: Re: systemd fails to poweroff - A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER]

[Zenaan Harkness]

On 8/13/14, Padraig Rocks padraig.ro...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tuesday, 12 August 2014, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On Ma, 12 aug 14, 12:51:12, Paul E Condon wrote:
  I interpret the quoted string in the Subject: header as being flawed
  use of English language. 'stop' should be 'stopped'. And, there is a
 ...
  In a better formulated message, there should be a comma ',' between
  'user' and '$USER'. Thus if the USER of Session 2 is Joe, the message
  should read (adding a full stop at the end):
 
  A stopped job is running for Session 2 of user, Joe.
 
  But even this is poorly worded. A job that is both running, and
  stopped is a goofy idea, as well as somewhat verbose. Maybe it should
  be:
 
  A stopped job exists for Session 2 of user, Joe.

 As a non-native speaker of English I understood the message as being
 about a job that tries to stop something, hence a stop job. Also, the
 comma definitely feels wrong. If anything that I'd rather put a colon,
 but it's still quite understandable for me like it is.

 Or to avoid the comma ?

  A stopped job exists in Session 2 of the user named Joe

I too read the error as meaning a special noun/ special process or
application called a stop job.

Often resequencing an English sentence can help to remove ambiguities, eg:
For Session 2 of user joe, a stop job exists.

Or of course if the word is meant to be stopped:
For Session 2 of user joe, a stopped job exists.

There should also be a suggestion in the error message of timeout eg:
For Session 2 of user joe, a stop job exists; now waiting up to 90 seconds.

Regards,
Zenaan

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How to deal with spam / uncooperative registrar (Moniker Online Services LLC)

[Francesco Ariis]

Hello Debian friends,
I have a problem with spam / registrars that do little to deal with spam
and I wanted opinions on how to act.

Long story short, whenever I receive a spam message, I immediately:

- notify the ISP whose IP the spam-mail is coming from;
- if there is a link/a mail address in the body of the message (e.g
  hey...@example.com or http://www.example.org/page/uid/13412341),
  I notify the registrar.

Every registrars/ISP I contacted was very cooperative in dealing with
unsolicited messages, apart from Moniker Online Services LLC; when I send a
complaint to their abuse/legal department, the reply is:

 Please be aware that Moniker is not the owner or host of this domain, and
 we have no control over the server sending the email.
 The domain owner can be contacted by using the address listed in the
 publicly available whois which can be located at: [...]

In so many words, they plan to do nothing (and searching around a bit, it
seems to be a known problem with them [1]).

Hence, the questions:

- is there any action I could take to pressure them to deal with this
  situation? I thought reporting them to ICANN, but maybe ICANN doesn't
  deal with these matters.

- is there a way to get a list of domains registered through them? It
  would be quite useful; I could pass it to mutt and have mail messages
  from those domains automatically marked for deletion

Thanks in advance
-F


[1] http://spamtrackers.eu/wiki/index.php/Moniker#Actual_Behavior


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The acronyms grep and dd

[Ralf Mardorf]

Hi,

I'm not subscribed to any Debian list anymore, but I guess some of you
like this FreeBSD thread.

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2014-July/259122.html
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2014-July/259123.html
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2014-July/259125.html
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2014-July/259128.html
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2014-July/259129.html

:D

Regards,
Ralf

PS: The policy of the FreeBSD list is to send to the list and to the
poster, because people don't need to be subscribed to the FreeBSD list.
I dislike it when people reply to senders for lists that require
subscription, but for open lists it's different. For Debian lists it's
wanted to reply to the list only, if not otherwise wanted by a poster.
So, please care about my wish and send carbon copies related to this
thread to me. TIA ;).



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Re: systemd (was ... Re: Article on swift, responsive computers)

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 2014-06-17 at 15:00 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
 On 6/17/14, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote:
 
  Don, don't forget to sent a copy to the list admin, TIA.
 
 Is there a COC against inciting moderation?
 
 :)
 
 If not, let's insist on it, so we can have some _real_ fun,

During the (transmission *lol* should be) transition to systemd the Arch
general mailing list was moderated.

Nobody is willing to do it, those who are willing to do it are people
who will make dubious decision, on the Arch general mailing list even
the questions of experienced Linux users often were rejected
conclusively justified with a not smart enough question, issue
isn't caused by Arch, report it to upstream.

The moderators need a sleep, have to work and eat and sometimes they go
to the toilette, so mails could come through or you receive the reply
why the mail is rejected with several hours of delay.

It's a job for people suffering from querulous paranoia, who check the
email addresses and reinterpret the CoC.

freedbms.net
 BDSM, the typos won't protect you from being banned.

alice-dsl.net
^ Lewis Carroll's story about drug abuse, not to mention the kind of
photography he made.

lists.alioth.debian.org
^^ SA a paramilitary branch




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Re: systemd (was ... Re: Article on swift, responsive computers)

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 2014-06-17 at 11:21 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 alice-dsl.net
 ^ Lewis Carroll's story about drug abuse
  
alice-dsl.net
  ^^^
JFTR DSL, read it from the right to the left. That might explain why
this ISP is such a pain to me. The Alice admins are always on drugs and
not on business.


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The CD conspiracy - Was: Re: systemd (was ... Re: Article on swift, responsive computers)

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 2014-06-17 at 11:48 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 On Tue, 2014-06-17 at 11:21 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
  alice-dsl.net
  ^ Lewis Carroll's story about drug abuse
   
 alice-dsl.net
   ^^^
 JFTR DSL, read it from the right to the left. That might explain why
 this ISP is such a pain to me. The Alice admins are always on drugs and
 not on business.

In the good old times everybody was able to play a record backwards, so
we could avoid to listen to satanic records with subliminal stimuli.
Nowadays there's the need to have complex audio equipment to play CDs
backwards and to check, if they e.g. do or don't offend the CoC.



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Re: Ban me

[Diogene Laerce]

On 06/15/2014 10:12 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 Have you ever harvested and dried a datura?
 Have you ever cared about the bottom of the datura?
 
 If you dry it, it will open like an egg in the movie Alien. Some of us
 where artists before that movie became a cult.
 
 The bottom of the datura is a pentagram. It isn't something magically,
 it simply is nature.

I never dried it or cared about but I actually took some as a big bowl
of datura tea. And I confirm : after, your head does look like an egg
and DD becomes your imaginary friend. Or maybe the opposite..

 I dislike the approach of some Linux users, that Linux should beyond
 nature.

Yet that's kind of natural behavior.. :)

-- 
“One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings.”
“Le vrai n'est pas plus sûr que le probable.”

  Diogene Laerce



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