Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

All true; if this problem becomes enough of an annoyance, I'm considering
closing the account and opening a new one... the outstanding check would
bounce should it ever be deposited.


On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 11:26 AM Kalpesh Patel 
wrote:

> " WOULD honor the check " -- that is the price to be paid because of
> automation where date, whether hand written out or otherwise, cannot be
> deciphered correctly 100% of the time by the check processing equipment and
> its OCR, but the check number is in MICR line which is decipherable by all
> check processing equipment, hence able to "stop" it.
>
> Even though check might say valid XX days or valid until some date, I bet
> it would get processed just like a postdated check would when deposited. Of
> course payer can take an exception with the bank but nonetheless the
> payee's bank check processing equipment would not hold it off.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: R Losey 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 12:31 AM
> To: stepbystepf...@comcast.net
> Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)
>
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 4:37 PM Michael or Penny Novack <
> stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On 4/9/2024 12:50 PM, R Losey wrote:
> > > Thanks; I wasn't sure if those (cash vs accrual) were the correct
> terms.
> > >
> > > Legally, are you saying that if I write a check for $50 and send it
> > > to my uncle, it's "paid" whether or not he ever cashes it?
> > >
> > > As as aside, I am actually in this situation; I sent e check many
> > > years
> > ago
> > > to someone who has never cashed it; when I asked about it, the
> > > person
> > told
> > > me that they had no intention of cashing the check, but also
> > > couldn't
> > find
> > > it to return it, so I've been carrying that check now for years.
> > > Sadly,
> > the
> > > cost of issuing a "stop check" is not worth it, and the bank says it
> > > will honor a check, no matter how old, so I don't see any way out of
> this.
> >
> > What are the laws of your jurisdiction and/or the banking customs? Or
> > the rules of your bank as to how long they will consider a check "live"
> > (will honor it if presented).
> >
>
> I'm in Texas; I specifically asked the bank and they said that they WOULD
> honor the check, regardless of how old it was. This surprised me greatly,
> as I worked in a bank in Illinois, and we would hold any check that was
> "old" (I think perhaps six months). They suggested I issue a "stop check",
> but as I noted, it's not worth it.
>
>
>
>
> > Most places I have ever lived, most banks I have dealt with, have
> > definite rules that apply unless the check itself specifies a shorter
> > period. Haven't you ever gotten a check marked "void after 60 days"
> > (or
> > whatever)
> >
>
> Certainly, but I didn't expect this situation and I didn't write any such
> thing on the check.
>
>
>
> > Your bank told you WILL HONOR or CAN HONOR? It is common for banks to
> > say CAB HONOR to relieve themselves of liability in a case where they
> > did honor a check after the date their policy (or jurisdiction laws)
> > specify. In other words, "we normally will not honor checks more than
> > six months old but can honor a check no matter how old".
> >
>
> I thought they said "WILL HONOR"
>
>
>
>
> > But back to where this started, you paid your uncle on the date you
> > gave him that check.
> >
>
> Right, but this wasn't any kind of legal debt; he had visited and done us
> some favors, and we tried to thank him by sending him a check. He said he
> wouldn't take it, but he couldn't find it to give it back. He may have
> thrown it out; he just couldn't remember what he did with it. Thus, I am
> still considering an outstanding check, even though it is probably safe to
> consider it gone.
>
>
>
> _
> Richard Losey
> rlo...@gmail.com
> Micah 6:8
>
>
>

-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Kalpesh Patel]

" WOULD honor the check " -- that is the price to be paid because of automation 
where date, whether hand written out or otherwise, cannot be deciphered 
correctly 100% of the time by the check processing equipment and its OCR, but 
the check number is in MICR line which is decipherable by all check processing 
equipment, hence able to "stop" it.

Even though check might say valid XX days or valid until some date, I bet it 
would get processed just like a postdated check would when deposited. Of course 
payer can take an exception with the bank but nonetheless the payee's bank 
check processing equipment would not hold it off.

-Original Message-
From: R Losey  
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 12:31 AM
To: stepbystepf...@comcast.net
Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 4:37 PM Michael or Penny Novack < 
stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 4/9/2024 12:50 PM, R Losey wrote:
> > Thanks; I wasn't sure if those (cash vs accrual) were the correct terms.
> >
> > Legally, are you saying that if I write a check for $50 and send it 
> > to my uncle, it's "paid" whether or not he ever cashes it?
> >
> > As as aside, I am actually in this situation; I sent e check many 
> > years
> ago
> > to someone who has never cashed it; when I asked about it, the 
> > person
> told
> > me that they had no intention of cashing the check, but also 
> > couldn't
> find
> > it to return it, so I've been carrying that check now for years. 
> > Sadly,
> the
> > cost of issuing a "stop check" is not worth it, and the bank says it 
> > will honor a check, no matter how old, so I don't see any way out of this.
>
> What are the laws of your jurisdiction and/or the banking customs? Or 
> the rules of your bank as to how long they will consider a check "live"
> (will honor it if presented).
>

I'm in Texas; I specifically asked the bank and they said that they WOULD honor 
the check, regardless of how old it was. This surprised me greatly, as I worked 
in a bank in Illinois, and we would hold any check that was "old" (I think 
perhaps six months). They suggested I issue a "stop check", but as I noted, 
it's not worth it.




> Most places I have ever lived, most banks I have dealt with, have 
> definite rules that apply unless the check itself specifies a shorter 
> period. Haven't you ever gotten a check marked "void after 60 days" 
> (or
> whatever)
>

Certainly, but I didn't expect this situation and I didn't write any such thing 
on the check.



> Your bank told you WILL HONOR or CAN HONOR? It is common for banks to 
> say CAB HONOR to relieve themselves of liability in a case where they 
> did honor a check after the date their policy (or jurisdiction laws) 
> specify. In other words, "we normally will not honor checks more than 
> six months old but can honor a check no matter how old".
>

I thought they said "WILL HONOR"




> But back to where this started, you paid your uncle on the date you 
> gave him that check.
>

Right, but this wasn't any kind of legal debt; he had visited and done us some 
favors, and we tried to thank him by sending him a check. He said he wouldn't 
take it, but he couldn't find it to give it back. He may have thrown it out; he 
just couldn't remember what he did with it. Thus, I am still considering an 
outstanding check, even though it is probably safe to consider it gone.



_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8


___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

I'm using the final option - keeping enough there to cover the check.

His story is that he has no plans to cash the check, but he didn't know
where the check is anymore. *sigh*


On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 10:07 PM Adrien Monteleone <
adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net> wrote:

> You 'paid' when you 'tendered' the payment. (tender isn't just an offer
> of payment, but includes acceptance/receipt, which has happened in this
> case. It does not include cashing/depositing or otherwise processing a
> negotiable instrument that was tendered as payment.)
>
> How you handle the uncleared check would depend on the amount of the
> check, the amount of the stop payment fee, the amount of an overdraft
> fee, and your propensity to skirt a zero balance in the account.
>
> If you *never* get within the amount of the outstanding check as your
> bank balance, you could likely just add it back.
>
> If you routinely skirt zero, (or within zero and the value of the check)
> then I'd weigh the stop-payment fee vs. the overdraft fee. But keep in
> mind, the stop-payment is only one time. The overdraft would be each and
> every time.
>
> Finally, you can just keep it on your books as-is, always leaving a
> cushion to avoid overdrafts. When you die, the account will be closed
> and the funds returned to your heirs. The check could not be honored at
> that point. (hopefully - better to get legal advice on that one!)
>
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
> On 4/9/24 11:50 AM, R Losey wrote:
> > Legally, are you saying that if I write a check for $50 and send it to my
> > uncle, it's "paid" whether or not he ever cashes it?
> >
> > As as aside, I am actually in this situation; I sent e check many years
> ago
> > to someone who has never cashed it; when I asked about it, the person
> told
> > me that they had no intention of cashing the check, but also couldn't
> find
> > it to return it, so I've been carrying that check now for years. Sadly,
> the
> > cost of issuing a "stop check" is not worth it, and the bank says it will
> > honor a check, no matter how old, so I don't see any way out of this.
>
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>


-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

Thank you very much.

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 8:19 PM David Cousens 
wrote:

> Richard
>
> The general rules in accounting practice are that transactions are
> recognised in a business' books as income when they are earned and as
> expenses when they are incurred unless affected by other business or
> taxation legislation.  This is the position for accrual accounting.
>
> Some smaller businesses are permitted to operate on a cash accounting
> basis in many jurisdictions. Usually there is a turnover threshold (or
> similar) under which the business can use cash accounting where income
> is recognized when received and expenses recognized when payment is
> made. This generally simplifies cash flow calculations which gives
> small business owner's better management control.
>
> When is income earned? The usual criteria is completeion of a job or as
> defined by a contract where part payments are involved and an invoice
> should be issued to the client dated at that time.
>
> Expenses are generally considered to be incurred at the point where you
> enter into a contractual agreement (formal or informal) to purchase
> goods or services not when you make actual payment for them.
>
> These general rules can be overridden by specific legislation and
> reporting requirements for your type and scale of business which can
> vary considerably with the legal jurisdiction in which the business is
> operated and should not be necessarily considered as being applicable
> in any given situation.
> Specific accounting advice relevant to your jurisdiction should always
> be obtained from a qualified/licensed accountant in your jurisdiction.
>
> David Cousens
>
>
>
> On Mon, 2024-04-08 at 17:11 -0500, R Losey wrote:
> > Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always
> > dated a
> > transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering
> > credit
> > card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit
> > card.
> >
> > Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he
> > said that
> > he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his
> > transactions.
> >
> > I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from
> > the
> > method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or
> > perhaps
> > it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this
> > list
> > to see what people think about it.
> >
> > From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> > difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> >
> >
> > After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that
> > the
> > transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> > transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid
> > each
> > month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the
> > 28th. My
> > friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday
> > hits
> > just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long
> > run
> > everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look
> > odd.
> > Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.
> >
> > I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.
>
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>


-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 4:37 PM Michael or Penny Novack <
stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 4/9/2024 12:50 PM, R Losey wrote:
> > Thanks; I wasn't sure if those (cash vs accrual) were the correct terms.
> >
> > Legally, are you saying that if I write a check for $50 and send it to my
> > uncle, it's "paid" whether or not he ever cashes it?
> >
> > As as aside, I am actually in this situation; I sent e check many years
> ago
> > to someone who has never cashed it; when I asked about it, the person
> told
> > me that they had no intention of cashing the check, but also couldn't
> find
> > it to return it, so I've been carrying that check now for years. Sadly,
> the
> > cost of issuing a "stop check" is not worth it, and the bank says it will
> > honor a check, no matter how old, so I don't see any way out of this.
>
> What are the laws of your jurisdiction and/or the banking customs? Or
> the rules of your bank as to how long they will consider a check "live"
> (will honor it if presented).
>

I'm in Texas; I specifically asked the bank and they said that they WOULD
honor the check, regardless of how old it was. This surprised me greatly,
as I worked in a bank in Illinois, and we would hold any check that was
"old" (I think perhaps six months). They suggested I issue a "stop check",
but as I noted, it's not worth it.




> Most places I have ever lived, most banks I have dealt with, have
> definite rules that apply unless the check itself specifies a shorter
> period. Haven't you ever gotten a check marked "void after 60 days" (or
> whatever)
>

Certainly, but I didn't expect this situation and I didn't write any such
thing on the check.



> Your bank told you WILL HONOR or CAN HONOR? It is common for banks to
> say CAB HONOR to relieve themselves of liability in a case where they
> did honor a check after the date their policy (or jurisdiction laws)
> specify. In other words, "we normally will not honor checks more than
> six months old but can honor a check no matter how old".
>

I thought they said "WILL HONOR"




> But back to where this started, you paid your uncle on the date you gave
> him that check.
>

Right, but this wasn't any kind of legal debt; he had visited and done us
some favors, and we tried to thank him by sending him a check. He said he
wouldn't take it, but he couldn't find it to give it back. He may have
thrown it out; he just couldn't remember what he did with it. Thus, I am
still considering an outstanding check, even though it is probably safe to
consider it gone.



_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Adrien Monteleone]

You 'paid' when you 'tendered' the payment. (tender isn't just an offer 
of payment, but includes acceptance/receipt, which has happened in this 
case. It does not include cashing/depositing or otherwise processing a 
negotiable instrument that was tendered as payment.)


How you handle the uncleared check would depend on the amount of the 
check, the amount of the stop payment fee, the amount of an overdraft 
fee, and your propensity to skirt a zero balance in the account.


If you *never* get within the amount of the outstanding check as your 
bank balance, you could likely just add it back.


If you routinely skirt zero, (or within zero and the value of the check) 
then I'd weigh the stop-payment fee vs. the overdraft fee. But keep in 
mind, the stop-payment is only one time. The overdraft would be each and 
every time.


Finally, you can just keep it on your books as-is, always leaving a 
cushion to avoid overdrafts. When you die, the account will be closed 
and the funds returned to your heirs. The check could not be honored at 
that point. (hopefully - better to get legal advice on that one!)



Regards,
Adrien

On 4/9/24 11:50 AM, R Losey wrote:

Legally, are you saying that if I write a check for $50 and send it to my
uncle, it's "paid" whether or not he ever cashes it?

As as aside, I am actually in this situation; I sent e check many years ago
to someone who has never cashed it; when I asked about it, the person told
me that they had no intention of cashing the check, but also couldn't find
it to return it, so I've been carrying that check now for years. Sadly, the
cost of issuing a "stop check" is not worth it, and the bank says it will
honor a check, no matter how old, so I don't see any way out of this.


___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[David Cousens]

Richard

The general rules in accounting practice are that transactions are
recognised in a business' books as income when they are earned and as
expenses when they are incurred unless affected by other business or
taxation legislation.  This is the position for accrual accounting. 

Some smaller businesses are permitted to operate on a cash accounting
basis in many jurisdictions. Usually there is a turnover threshold (or
similar) under which the business can use cash accounting where income
is recognized when received and expenses recognized when payment is
made. This generally simplifies cash flow calculations which gives
small business owner's better management control.

When is income earned? The usual criteria is completeion of a job or as
defined by a contract where part payments are involved and an invoice
should be issued to the client dated at that time.

Expenses are generally considered to be incurred at the point where you
enter into a contractual agreement (formal or informal) to purchase
goods or services not when you make actual payment for them.

These general rules can be overridden by specific legislation and
reporting requirements for your type and scale of business which can
vary considerably with the legal jurisdiction in which the business is
operated and should not be necessarily considered as being applicable
in any given situation. 
Specific accounting advice relevant to your jurisdiction should always
be obtained from a qualified/licensed accountant in your jurisdiction.

David Cousens



On Mon, 2024-04-08 at 17:11 -0500, R Losey wrote:
> Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always
> dated a
> transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering
> credit
> card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit
> card.
> 
> Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he
> said that
> he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his
> transactions.
> 
> I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from
> the
> method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or
> perhaps
> it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this
> list
> to see what people think about it.
> 
> From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> 
> 
> After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that
> the
> transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid
> each
> month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the
> 28th. My
> friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday
> hits
> just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long
> run
> everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look
> odd.
> Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.
> 
> I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.

___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 4/9/2024 12:50 PM, R Losey wrote:

Thanks; I wasn't sure if those (cash vs accrual) were the correct terms.

Legally, are you saying that if I write a check for $50 and send it to my
uncle, it's "paid" whether or not he ever cashes it?

As as aside, I am actually in this situation; I sent e check many years ago
to someone who has never cashed it; when I asked about it, the person told
me that they had no intention of cashing the check, but also couldn't find
it to return it, so I've been carrying that check now for years. Sadly, the
cost of issuing a "stop check" is not worth it, and the bank says it will
honor a check, no matter how old, so I don't see any way out of this.


What are the laws of your jurisdiction and/or the banking customs? Or 
the rules of your bank as to how long they will consider a check "live" 
(will honor it if presented).


Most places I have ever lived, most banks I have dealt with, have 
definite rules that apply unless the check itself specifies a shorter 
period. Haven't you ever gotten a check marked "void after 60 days" (or 
whatever)


Your bank told you WILL HONOR or CAN HONOR? It is common for banks to 
say CAB HONOR to relieve themselves of liability in a case where they 
did honor a check after the date their policy (or jurisdiction laws) 
specify. In other words, "we normally will not honor checks more than 
six months old but can honor a check no matter how old".


But back to where this started, you paid your uncle on the date you gave 
him that check.


Michael D Novack


___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Stan Brown (using GC 4.14)]

On 2024-04-09 09:55, R Losey wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 8:42 AM Stan Brown (using GC 4.14)
> mailto:stan%2...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:
> On cash basis, it's not an expense until it's paid. Therefore, _nothing_
> is recorded until the payment date after the statement date after the
> meal. Then you record
>         Dr: Expenses:Restaurant Dining
>         Cr: Assets:Cash in Bank
> and a similar entry for every charge on that month's credit card
> statement.
> 
> 
> Wow - how odd. I would expect to always have two transactions; one when
> I dine (either using the date I dined or the date that the credit card
> charge went through) - increasing what I owe to the credit card company,
> and a second one when the credit card payment is made - reducing my debt
> to the credit card company. I guess one could do it the way you say, but
> it seems very awkward.
I was not advocating doing that; I was explaining the difference between
cash basis and accrual basis. Your snipping was obscured my meaning.
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Stan Brown (using GC 4.14)]

On 2024-04-09 09:50, R Losey wrote:
> Legally, are you saying that if I write a check for $50 and send it to my
> uncle, it's "paid" whether or not he ever cashes it?

In the United States, yes. If you owe someone a debt and send them a
check but they don't cash it, you have still paid them, just as if you
sent them cash and they stuffed it in the mattress. The payment is
theirs when they receive it, but what they do with it doesn't affect the
fact that your debt is discharged. (I don't know the legal position if
it's lost in the mail and they don't contact you.)

This comes up in the tax treatment of items paid for around Dec 31st. I
made a mortgage payment on Dec 28th one year, and the bank didn't credit
it till Jan 4th or thereabouts. It seems likely they received it on the
2nd or 3rd, not in December. The interest portion was still deductible
by me in the year I sent it, not the year they received it. I attached a
statement to my return to explain why I was claiming more interest than
their statement showed,  then did the same thing the following year to
explain why my claim was less than their statement showed.

There _is_ a concept of a "stale check"; see

I don't know the legal position if the payee could have cashed the check
but for no compelling reason waited to do so until it became stale. Are
you obliged to write a new check to replace the stale one, or is it the
payee's tough luck?

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Gyle McCollam]

R Losey,
"I thought "floating a check" means that one issues a check, knowing that there 
isn't money to cover it, but planning to deposit funds before the check is 
presented for cashing."  That is actually called check kiting and is actually, 
I was going to say technically, but actually is proper, illegal in the US.

And you are correct, that from an accounting point of view the actual 
transaction date is the correct date, not the cleared or posted date of the 
recipient.  Your third point is correct also.

Here is a definition of kiting:

  *   "Process:
 *   The kiter writes a check from one bank account (Bank A) to another 
(Bank B), even though there are insufficient funds in Bank A.
 *   Before the check clears at Bank B, the kiter withdraws funds from Bank 
B" or this could be another bank "and deposits them back into Bank A.
 *   This cycle may be repeated multiple times, relying on the float time 
(the time it takes for a check to clear) to stay ahead of the fraudulent checks.
  *
Example: Imagine writing a check for $1,000 from Bank A to Bank B, even though 
you only have $100 in Bank A. Before the check clears at Bank B, you withdraw 
$1,000 from Bank B and deposit it back into Bank A. The net result is a series 
of fraudulent withdrawals based on uncleared checks."

  The red comment on the second line of the second item is mine.



Thank You,

Gyle McCollam

Gyle McCollam

gmccol...@live.com<mailto:gmccol...@gyleshomes.com>   email


From: gnucash-user  on 
behalf of Kalpesh Patel 
Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2024 1:06 PM
To: 'R Losey' 
Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

In the end, monies is what is “float”. That is what I remember from finance 
course number of decades ago; it is more of money function rather than time 
function.



Anyways, I also have pondered with that “delay” between when one has “started” 
the transaction and when one has “completed” the transaction. The way I am 
dealing with it is to denote the transaction on the day I actually made it and 
then when reconciling it update the date as it appears on financial institution 
side. If one really wants to account for it then there would be an intermediary 
“floats” account to which you would post the transaction when “started” and 
then when it “completes”, another transaction would be posted from that 
“floats” account into the final account. This “floats” account would always be 
running close to zero unless a check sent that has never been cashed which 
would show up here. I would think that this “floats” would be a liability 
account…





From: R Losey 
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2024 12:44 PM
To: Kalpesh Patel 
Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)



I thought "floating a check" means that one issues a check, knowing that there 
isn't money to cover it, but planning to deposit funds before the check is 
presented for cashing.



But perhaps you mean "float time" -- that may well be the correct term. I was 
just interested in knowing what people here (many of whom have a closer 
acquantaintence with accounting than I do) thought about using the actual date 
of the transaction versus using the cleared date of the transaction.



Clearly, the "cleared" date is when the money actually transfers, but (to my 
mind), one doesn't have an accurate picture of one's finances if there is 
pending money to be removed from an account.







On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 7:26 AM Kalpesh Patel mailto:kalpesh.pa...@usa.net> > wrote:

In the states, isn't that what is called "floats"?

-Original Message-
From: Liz mailto:ed...@billiau.net> >
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2024 6:50 PM
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org <mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org>
Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 17:11:37 -0500
R Losey mailto:rlo...@gmail.com> > wrote:

> Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always
> dated a transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when
> entering credit card transactions, I use the date that I actually
> used the credit card.
>
> Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he
> said that he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of
> his transactions.
>
> I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or
> perhaps it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up
> to this list to see what people think about it.
>
> From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
>
>
> After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that
> the transactions occ

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Kalpesh Patel]

In the end, monies is what is “float”. That is what I remember from finance 
course number of decades ago; it is more of money function rather than time 
function.

 

Anyways, I also have pondered with that “delay” between when one has “started” 
the transaction and when one has “completed” the transaction. The way I am 
dealing with it is to denote the transaction on the day I actually made it and 
then when reconciling it update the date as it appears on financial institution 
side. If one really wants to account for it then there would be an intermediary 
“floats” account to which you would post the transaction when “started” and 
then when it “completes”, another transaction would be posted from that 
“floats” account into the final account. This “floats” account would always be 
running close to zero unless a check sent that has never been cashed which 
would show up here. I would think that this “floats” would be a liability 
account…

 

 

From: R Losey  
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2024 12:44 PM
To: Kalpesh Patel 
Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

 

I thought "floating a check" means that one issues a check, knowing that there 
isn't money to cover it, but planning to deposit funds before the check is 
presented for cashing.

 

But perhaps you mean "float time" -- that may well be the correct term. I was 
just interested in knowing what people here (many of whom have a closer 
acquantaintence with accounting than I do) thought about using the actual date 
of the transaction versus using the cleared date of the transaction.

 

Clearly, the "cleared" date is when the money actually transfers, but (to my 
mind), one doesn't have an accurate picture of one's finances if there is 
pending money to be removed from an account.

 

 

 

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 7:26 AM Kalpesh Patel mailto:kalpesh.pa...@usa.net> > wrote:

In the states, isn't that what is called "floats"?

-Original Message-
From: Liz mailto:ed...@billiau.net> > 
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2024 6:50 PM
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org <mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org> 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 17:11:37 -0500
R Losey mailto:rlo...@gmail.com> > wrote:

> Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always
> dated a transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when
> entering credit card transactions, I use the date that I actually
> used the credit card.
> 
> Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he
> said that he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of
> his transactions.
> 
> I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or
> perhaps it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up
> to this list to see what people think about it.
> 
> From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> 
> 
> After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that
> the transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the
> 28th. My friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend
> or holiday hits just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees
> it. In the long run everything should be the same, but the monthly
> sub-totals can look odd. Checks can be even worse... someone may hang
> onto one for weeks.
> 
> I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.

I think it is a philosophical difference.
There are legal ramifications, especially when you are spending money.
If you future date transactions you may spend money you don't actually
have. In my jurisdiction a business doing this is in big trouble, for
"trading while insolvent". 
It is not the difference between cash and accrual accounting, but is
part of the differences.

Liz


___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org <mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org> 
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.




 

-- 

_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com <mailto:rlo...@gmail.com> 
Micah 6:8

___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 8:42 AM Stan Brown (using GC 4.14) <
stan...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> On 2024-04-09 01:19, David Carlson wrote:
> > Nearly every time [the bank's] list doesn't match my list, the
> > difference is precisely the difference between when I wrote the check or
> > when I initiated a payment online or when I swiped a card and when they
> > posted the transaction to my account.  That is what we users often
> consider
> > to be the difference between accrual basis vs cash basis.
>
> I must respectfully disagree. That difference is simply timing. It can
> occur whether you are on a cash basis or an accrual basis, but in itself
> it is not a difference between cash and accrual basis.
>
> For example, suppose you have a credit card, and to avoid paying finance
> charge you chose to have your bank automatically pay the latest
> statement balance on the payment due date. How is a restaurant dinner
> recorded when you pay by credit card?
>
> On cash basis, it's not an expense until it's paid. Therefore, _nothing_
> is recorded until the payment date after the statement date after the
> meal. Then you record
> Dr: Expenses:Restaurant Dining
> Cr: Assets:Cash in Bank
> and a similar entry for every charge on that month's credit card statement.
>

Wow - how odd. I would expect to always have two transactions; one when I
dine (either using the date I dined or the date that the credit card charge
went through) - increasing what I owe to the credit card company, and a
second one when the credit card payment is made - reducing my debt to the
credit card company. I guess one could do it the way you say, but it seems
very awkward.


_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

Thanks; I wasn't sure if those (cash vs accrual) were the correct terms.

Legally, are you saying that if I write a check for $50 and send it to my
uncle, it's "paid" whether or not he ever cashes it?

As as aside, I am actually in this situation; I sent e check many years ago
to someone who has never cashed it; when I asked about it, the person told
me that they had no intention of cashing the check, but also couldn't find
it to return it, so I've been carrying that check now for years. Sadly, the
cost of issuing a "stop check" is not worth it, and the bank says it will
honor a check, no matter how old, so I don't see any way out of this.


On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 7:44 AM Gyle McCollam  wrote:

> 1st, that is not the difference between accrual basis accounting vs cash
> basis.  However, for your personal books if you want to use the bank dates
> it doesn't really matter.  Legally, once you send the payment whether
> direct debit or snail mail or swipe your credit card, you have paid/spent
> the money.
>
> These days banks do occasionally make mistakes, as when I wrote a check
> for $13.28 and the bank recorded it as $1328.00.  Hopefully, this kind of
> error will not get by and will be caught by you, but accepting the bank's
> numbers makes it easier to miss.
>
>
> Thank You,
>
> Gyle McCollam
>
> Gyle McCollam
>
> gmccol...@live.com<mailto:gmccol...@gyleshomes.com>   email
>
> 
> From: gnucash-user  on
> behalf of David Carlson 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2024 4:19 AM
> To: adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net 
> Cc: gnucash-u...@lists.gnucash.org 
> Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)
>
> I decided to report here why I think it is "ok" to import the transaction
> list from a bank and to accept their "Posted Dates."  When I perform the
> import operation I am using that tool to reconcile their record to an
> imaginary list in my head representing what I would have written in my
> checkbook.  Nearly every time their list doesn't match my list, the
> difference is precisely the difference between when I wrote the check or
> when I initiated a payment online or when I swiped a card and when they
> posted the transaction to my account.  That is what we users often consider
> to be the difference between accrual basis vs cash basis.
>
> These days the fraud mitigation department at the bank is far better able
> to catch fraud than I would be if I depended on a manual reconciliation
> process to catch errors or, more likely, fraud. My banks are very
> aggressively monitoring transactions and they will call me immediately when
> they see a suspicious transaction.  I have even had restaurant transactions
> declined from time to time when they could not contact me immediately.
> That can be embarrassing when we go to a restaurant that charges more than
> our average restaurant bill to celebrate a birthday or whatever, but it
> beats the alternative.
>
> I can still use the import process as my tool to look for errors or
> fraudulent transactions that they might have missed.  My rationale for
> accepting their posting dates is that my list then closely matches theirs
> if ever a need arises to decide whether an overdraft charge is correctly
> assessed or whether a valid payment was declined by the bank.  I would not
> consider it wrong to instead use the dates that I initiate transactions,
> it's just not my preference.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 10:41 PM Adrien Monteleone <
> adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net> wrote:
>
> > While there are other considerations, such as cash versus accrual and
> > following the Recognition Principle, I see this as more of a general
> > case of Your Books vs. the Bank's Books.
> >
> > You keep Your Books.
> >
> > The Bank keeps theirs.
> >
> > You then reconcile the two. (which does *not* involve changing dates)
> >
> > Simply copying what the bank has misses the opportunity to catch someone
> > else's errors. (they *do* happen)
> >
> > This is a similar question of entering your own transactions as they
> > occur, or just downloading from the bank and importing.
> >
> > It is a personal choice, but can have other implications as noted.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Adrien
> >
> > On 4/8/24 5:11 PM, R Losey wrote:
> > > Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always
> dated a
> > > transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering
> > credit
> > > card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.
> > >
> > > Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend 

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

I thought "floating a check" means that one issues a check, knowing that
there isn't money to cover it, but planning to deposit funds before the
check is presented for cashing.

But perhaps you mean "float time" -- that may well be the correct term. I
was just interested in knowing what people here (many of whom have a closer
acquantaintence with accounting than I do) thought about using the actual
date of the transaction versus using the cleared date of the transaction.

Clearly, the "cleared" date is when the money actually transfers, but (to
my mind), one doesn't have an accurate picture of one's finances if there
is pending money to be removed from an account.



On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 7:26 AM Kalpesh Patel  wrote:

> In the states, isn't that what is called "floats"?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Liz 
> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2024 6:50 PM
> To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)
>
> On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 17:11:37 -0500
> R Losey  wrote:
>
> > Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always
> > dated a transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when
> > entering credit card transactions, I use the date that I actually
> > used the credit card.
> >
> > Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he
> > said that he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of
> > his transactions.
> >
> > I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> > method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or
> > perhaps it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up
> > to this list to see what people think about it.
> >
> > From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> > difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> >
> >
> > After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that
> > the transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> > transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> > month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the
> > 28th. My friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend
> > or holiday hits just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees
> > it. In the long run everything should be the same, but the monthly
> > sub-totals can look odd. Checks can be even worse... someone may hang
> > onto one for weeks.
> >
> > I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.
>
> I think it is a philosophical difference.
> There are legal ramifications, especially when you are spending money.
> If you future date transactions you may spend money you don't actually
> have. In my jurisdiction a business doing this is in big trouble, for
> "trading while insolvent".
> It is not the difference between cash and accrual accounting, but is
> part of the differences.
>
> Liz
>
>
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>


-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

Noted, and thanks for the information.

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 3:20 AM David Carlson 
wrote:

> I decided to report here why I think it is "ok" to import the transaction
> list from a bank and to accept their "Posted Dates."  When I perform the
> import operation I am using that tool to reconcile their record to an
> imaginary list in my head representing what I would have written in my
> checkbook.  Nearly every time their list doesn't match my list, the
> difference is precisely the difference between when I wrote the check or
> when I initiated a payment online or when I swiped a card and when they
> posted the transaction to my account.  That is what we users often consider
> to be the difference between accrual basis vs cash basis.
>
> These days the fraud mitigation department at the bank is far better able
> to catch fraud than I would be if I depended on a manual reconciliation
> process to catch errors or, more likely, fraud. My banks are very
> aggressively monitoring transactions and they will call me immediately when
> they see a suspicious transaction.  I have even had restaurant transactions
> declined from time to time when they could not contact me immediately.
> That can be embarrassing when we go to a restaurant that charges more than
> our average restaurant bill to celebrate a birthday or whatever, but it
> beats the alternative.
>
> I can still use the import process as my tool to look for errors or
> fraudulent transactions that they might have missed.  My rationale for
> accepting their posting dates is that my list then closely matches theirs
> if ever a need arises to decide whether an overdraft charge is correctly
> assessed or whether a valid payment was declined by the bank.  I would not
> consider it wrong to instead use the dates that I initiate transactions,
> it's just not my preference.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 10:41 PM Adrien Monteleone <
> adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net> wrote:
>
> > While there are other considerations, such as cash versus accrual and
> > following the Recognition Principle, I see this as more of a general
> > case of Your Books vs. the Bank's Books.
> >
> > You keep Your Books.
> >
> > The Bank keeps theirs.
> >
> > You then reconcile the two. (which does *not* involve changing dates)
> >
> > Simply copying what the bank has misses the opportunity to catch someone
> > else's errors. (they *do* happen)
> >
> > This is a similar question of entering your own transactions as they
> > occur, or just downloading from the bank and importing.
> >
> > It is a personal choice, but can have other implications as noted.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Adrien
> >
> > On 4/8/24 5:11 PM, R Losey wrote:
> > > Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always
> dated a
> > > transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering
> > credit
> > > card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.
> > >
> > > Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he said
> > that
> > > he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his
> > transactions.
> > >
> > > I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> > > method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or perhaps
> > > it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this
> list
> > > to see what people think about it.
> > >
> > >  From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> > > difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> > >
> > >
> > > After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that
> the
> > > transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> > > transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> > > month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the 28th.
> > My
> > > friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday
> > hits
> > > just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long run
> > > everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look odd.
> > > Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.
> >
> > ___
> > gnucash-user mailing list
> > gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> > -
> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> >
>
>
> --
> David Carlson
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>


-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

Thank you!  I feel validated for doing it the same way! I, too, think that
doing it differently would lead to confusion.

However, when paying invoices, I use the date I paid the invoice; if I were
sending invoices, I'd use the date I send them.


On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 2:34 AM G R Hewitt  wrote:

> I always put the date the transaction took place, both for my personal
> accounts and when I was working in accounts.
> Same went for invoices, credits etc., the date on the document was the
> date that was input.
> To my mind, to do otherwise would do nothing but lead to confusion.
>
> On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 at 23:12, R Losey  wrote:
>
>> Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always dated a
>> transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering credit
>> card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.
>>
>> Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he said
>> that
>> he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his transactions.
>>
>> I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
>> method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or perhaps
>> it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this list
>> to see what people think about it.
>>
>> From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
>> difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
>>
>>
>> After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that the
>> transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
>> transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
>> month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the 28th. My
>> friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday hits
>> just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long run
>> everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look odd.
>> Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.
>>
>> I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.
>> --
>> _
>> Richard Losey
>> rlo...@gmail.com
>> Micah 6:8
>> ___
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> -
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>

-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

I agree with everything you said... but consider the case when one does not
keep receipts and the only information one has is the bank statement and
credit card statement wouldn't that drive one to HAVE to enter from the
bank data?  Or suppose one is trying to keep books for a recently widowed
mother whose husband always kept track of the finances. If she is in
another state, the only thing one has to go by is the bank and credit card
statements.

I don't like either of these situations; I think people should ALWAYS keep
receipts for the first case, and in the second case, work out something by
which the person doing the financial work can know what the mother is
spending.  Relying in what's cleared just sounds like trouble waiting to
happen, but I can see cases like the above happening in which people use
the cleared data.


On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 10:41 PM Adrien Monteleone <
adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net> wrote:

> While there are other considerations, such as cash versus accrual and
> following the Recognition Principle, I see this as more of a general
> case of Your Books vs. the Bank's Books.
>
> You keep Your Books.
>
> The Bank keeps theirs.
>
> You then reconcile the two. (which does *not* involve changing dates)
>
> Simply copying what the bank has misses the opportunity to catch someone
> else's errors. (they *do* happen)
>
> This is a similar question of entering your own transactions as they
> occur, or just downloading from the bank and importing.
>
> It is a personal choice, but can have other implications as noted.
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
> On 4/8/24 5:11 PM, R Losey wrote:
> > Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always dated a
> > transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering
> credit
> > card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.
> >
> > Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he said
> that
> > he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his
> transactions.
> >
> > I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> > method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or perhaps
> > it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this list
> > to see what people think about it.
> >
> >  From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> > difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> >
> >
> > After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that the
> > transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> > transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> > month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the 28th.
> My
> > friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday
> hits
> > just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long run
> > everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look odd.
> > Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.
>
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>


-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

Thanks for the pointer; now that I have a phrase for which to search, maybe
I'll find some better information.

I've always dated transactions on the day I write the check, or when I
swipe the credit card, so waiting until they clear seems odd to me.

On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 8:11 PM Christopher Lam 
wrote:

> This is the formal terminology that the accountancy expert bodies deem
> "revenue recognition". Numerous formal (see IFRS and GAAP) publications
> exist, with a much better supporting evidence than our informal discussions
> here.
>
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2024, 6:12 am R Losey,  wrote:
>
>> Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always dated a
>> transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering credit
>> card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.
>>
>> Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he said
>> that
>> he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his transactions.
>>
>> I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
>> method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or perhaps
>> it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this list
>> to see what people think about it.
>>
>> From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
>> difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
>>
>>
>> After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that the
>> transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
>> transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
>> month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the 28th. My
>> friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday hits
>> just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long run
>> everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look odd.
>> Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.
>>
>> I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.
>> --
>> _
>> Richard Losey
>> rlo...@gmail.com
>> Micah 6:8
>> ___
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> -
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>

-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 5:51 PM Liz  wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 17:11:37 -0500
> R Losey  wrote:
>
> > Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always
> > dated a transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when
> > entering credit card transactions, I use the date that I actually
> > used the credit card.
> >
> > Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he
> > said that he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of
> > his transactions.
> >
> > I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> > method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or
> > perhaps it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up
> > to this list to see what people think about it.
> >
> > From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> > difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> >
> >
> > After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that
> > the transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> > transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> > month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the
> > 28th. My friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend
> > or holiday hits just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees
> > it. In the long run everything should be the same, but the monthly
> > sub-totals can look odd. Checks can be even worse... someone may hang
> > onto one for weeks.
> >
> > I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.
>
> I think it is a philosophical difference.
> There are legal ramifications, especially when you are spending money.
> If you future date transactions you may spend money you don't actually
> have. In my jurisdiction a business doing this is in big trouble, for
> "trading while insolvent".
> It is not the difference between cash and accrual accounting, but is
> part of the differences.
>
> Liz
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>

Thanks; just to be clear, I am not talking about future dating checks --
just using the date a check clears the bank versus using the date a check
is written.


-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Michael or Penny Novack]

That's not the difference. I understand you are using the credit card as 
a "30 day net" account with each vendor (I also do that) but for 
accounting purposes it's not the same as if each vendor were giving you 
a 30 day net invoice (and the bank just bundling these for a single 
payment of all such outstanding).


Yes "cash basis" is differing from "accrual basis" just by timing but 
the "cash" in "cash basis" does not refer to physical money. When you 
paid the vendor with a credit card you no longer have  a liability with 
that vendor (so record the expense then). When you later pay the credit 
card balance that was not an expense but a transfer between assets and 
liability.


How you date the expenses (paid by credit card) cannot depend on how you 
pay the credit card company. Cannot depend on that you paid the "new 
purchases" balance in full. Using your example, suppose in some month 
you were unable to pay that entire balance in full, just paid half of 
it. Do you propose booking each of the constituent expenses as one half 
the amount? << leaving the other half till when you eventually pay down 
that part of the outstanding credit card debt >>


Michael D Novack



On 4/9/2024 9:42 AM, Stan Brown (using GC 4.14) wrote:

On 2024-04-09 01:19, David Carlson wrote:

Nearly every time [the bank's] list doesn't match my list, the
difference is precisely the difference between when I wrote the check or
when I initiated a payment online or when I swiped a card and when they
posted the transaction to my account.  That is what we users often consider
to be the difference between accrual basis vs cash basis.

I must respectfully disagree. That difference is simply timing. It can
occur whether you are on a cash basis or an accrual basis, but in itself
it is not a difference between cash and accrual basis.

The chief difference between cash basis and accrual basis, for a person
as opposed to a business, is whether you record money you owe but
haven't paid (liabilities) and money owed to you but not yet received
(assets).

For example, suppose you have a credit card, and to avoid paying finance
charge you chose to have your bank automatically pay the latest
statement balance on the payment due date. How is a restaurant dinner
recorded when you pay by credit card?

On cash basis, it's not an expense until it's paid. Therefore, _nothing_
is recorded until the payment date after the statement date after the
meal. Then you record
Dr: Expenses:Restaurant Dining
Cr: Assets:Cash in Bank
and a similar entry for every charge on that month's credit card statement.

On accrual basis, it's an expense when it's incurred. You make this
entry when the meal happens:
Dr: Expenses:Restaurant Dining
Cr: Liabilities:Credit Card
and then when the payment happens, you make _one_ final entry:
Dr: Liabilities:Credit Card
Cr: Assets:Cash in Bank

Since the payment is automatic, you and the bank will record it as of
the same date, whether you are on the cash basis or accrual basis.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.



--
There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality 
of the grave.

___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Stan Brown (using GC 4.14)]

On 2024-04-09 05:25, Kalpesh Patel wrote:
> In the states, isn't that what is called "floats"?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Liz  
> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2024 6:50 PM
> I think it is a philosophical difference.
> There are legal ramifications, especially when you are spending money.
> If you future date transactions you may spend money you don't actually
> have. In my jurisdiction a business doing this is in big trouble, for
> "trading while insolvent". 
> It is not the difference between cash and accrual accounting, but is
> part of the differences.

Yes and no. The American Heritage Dictionary defines "float" as
"a. A sum of money representing checks that are outstanding.
b. The time between the issuing or depositing of a check and the
[crediting or] debiting of the issuer's account.
c. The time during which a credit card purchase can be repaid without
interest."

Float still exists, but banks are always adopting technology to shorten
the time. For instance, paper checks usually do not travel back to your
bank any more. These days, a check you write to any business but the
very smallest will most likely be transmitted as an image, not paper,
and will be reflected in your account within a day or two.

Writing a check when you don't have the money in your account to cover
it can subject you to both civil and criminal penalties for fraud. The
AHD defines "check kiting" as "The act of writing a check on a bank
account in an amount in excess of actual funds on deposit in the account
and then depositing that check in a second account at a different bank
to create a spurious deposit there, allowing checks to be drawn, or
credit secured, based on the second account, until the fraud is
discovered."

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Stan Brown (using GC 4.14)]

On 2024-04-09 01:19, David Carlson wrote:
> Nearly every time [the bank's] list doesn't match my list, the
> difference is precisely the difference between when I wrote the check or
> when I initiated a payment online or when I swiped a card and when they
> posted the transaction to my account.  That is what we users often consider
> to be the difference between accrual basis vs cash basis.

I must respectfully disagree. That difference is simply timing. It can
occur whether you are on a cash basis or an accrual basis, but in itself
it is not a difference between cash and accrual basis.

The chief difference between cash basis and accrual basis, for a person
as opposed to a business, is whether you record money you owe but
haven't paid (liabilities) and money owed to you but not yet received
(assets).

For example, suppose you have a credit card, and to avoid paying finance
charge you chose to have your bank automatically pay the latest
statement balance on the payment due date. How is a restaurant dinner
recorded when you pay by credit card?

On cash basis, it's not an expense until it's paid. Therefore, _nothing_
is recorded until the payment date after the statement date after the
meal. Then you record
Dr: Expenses:Restaurant Dining
Cr: Assets:Cash in Bank
and a similar entry for every charge on that month's credit card statement.

On accrual basis, it's an expense when it's incurred. You make this
entry when the meal happens:
Dr: Expenses:Restaurant Dining
Cr: Liabilities:Credit Card
and then when the payment happens, you make _one_ final entry:
Dr: Liabilities:Credit Card
Cr: Assets:Cash in Bank

Since the payment is automatic, you and the bank will record it as of
the same date, whether you are on the cash basis or accrual basis.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Gyle McCollam]

1st, that is not the difference between accrual basis accounting vs cash basis. 
 However, for your personal books if you want to use the bank dates it doesn't 
really matter.  Legally, once you send the payment whether direct debit or 
snail mail or swipe your credit card, you have paid/spent the money.

These days banks do occasionally make mistakes, as when I wrote a check for 
$13.28 and the bank recorded it as $1328.00.  Hopefully, this kind of error 
will not get by and will be caught by you, but accepting the bank's numbers 
makes it easier to miss.


Thank You,

Gyle McCollam

Gyle McCollam

gmccol...@live.com<mailto:gmccol...@gyleshomes.com>   email


From: gnucash-user  on 
behalf of David Carlson 
Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2024 4:19 AM
To: adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net 
Cc: gnucash-u...@lists.gnucash.org 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

I decided to report here why I think it is "ok" to import the transaction
list from a bank and to accept their "Posted Dates."  When I perform the
import operation I am using that tool to reconcile their record to an
imaginary list in my head representing what I would have written in my
checkbook.  Nearly every time their list doesn't match my list, the
difference is precisely the difference between when I wrote the check or
when I initiated a payment online or when I swiped a card and when they
posted the transaction to my account.  That is what we users often consider
to be the difference between accrual basis vs cash basis.

These days the fraud mitigation department at the bank is far better able
to catch fraud than I would be if I depended on a manual reconciliation
process to catch errors or, more likely, fraud. My banks are very
aggressively monitoring transactions and they will call me immediately when
they see a suspicious transaction.  I have even had restaurant transactions
declined from time to time when they could not contact me immediately.
That can be embarrassing when we go to a restaurant that charges more than
our average restaurant bill to celebrate a birthday or whatever, but it
beats the alternative.

I can still use the import process as my tool to look for errors or
fraudulent transactions that they might have missed.  My rationale for
accepting their posting dates is that my list then closely matches theirs
if ever a need arises to decide whether an overdraft charge is correctly
assessed or whether a valid payment was declined by the bank.  I would not
consider it wrong to instead use the dates that I initiate transactions,
it's just not my preference.



On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 10:41 PM Adrien Monteleone <
adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net> wrote:

> While there are other considerations, such as cash versus accrual and
> following the Recognition Principle, I see this as more of a general
> case of Your Books vs. the Bank's Books.
>
> You keep Your Books.
>
> The Bank keeps theirs.
>
> You then reconcile the two. (which does *not* involve changing dates)
>
> Simply copying what the bank has misses the opportunity to catch someone
> else's errors. (they *do* happen)
>
> This is a similar question of entering your own transactions as they
> occur, or just downloading from the bank and importing.
>
> It is a personal choice, but can have other implications as noted.
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
> On 4/8/24 5:11 PM, R Losey wrote:
> > Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always dated a
> > transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering
> credit
> > card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.
> >
> > Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he said
> that
> > he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his
> transactions.
> >
> > I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> > method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or perhaps
> > it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this list
> > to see what people think about it.
> >
> >  From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> > difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> >
> >
> > After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that the
> > transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> > transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> > month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the 28th.
> My
> > friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday
> hits
> > just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long run
> > everything should be the same, but the

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Kalpesh Patel]

In the states, isn't that what is called "floats"?

-Original Message-
From: Liz  
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2024 6:50 PM
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 17:11:37 -0500
R Losey  wrote:

> Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always
> dated a transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when
> entering credit card transactions, I use the date that I actually
> used the credit card.
> 
> Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he
> said that he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of
> his transactions.
> 
> I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or
> perhaps it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up
> to this list to see what people think about it.
> 
> From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> 
> 
> After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that
> the transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the
> 28th. My friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend
> or holiday hits just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees
> it. In the long run everything should be the same, but the monthly
> sub-totals can look odd. Checks can be even worse... someone may hang
> onto one for weeks.
> 
> I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.

I think it is a philosophical difference.
There are legal ramifications, especially when you are spending money.
If you future date transactions you may spend money you don't actually
have. In my jurisdiction a business doing this is in big trouble, for
"trading while insolvent". 
It is not the difference between cash and accrual accounting, but is
part of the differences.

Liz


___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[David Carlson]

I decided to report here why I think it is "ok" to import the transaction
list from a bank and to accept their "Posted Dates."  When I perform the
import operation I am using that tool to reconcile their record to an
imaginary list in my head representing what I would have written in my
checkbook.  Nearly every time their list doesn't match my list, the
difference is precisely the difference between when I wrote the check or
when I initiated a payment online or when I swiped a card and when they
posted the transaction to my account.  That is what we users often consider
to be the difference between accrual basis vs cash basis.

These days the fraud mitigation department at the bank is far better able
to catch fraud than I would be if I depended on a manual reconciliation
process to catch errors or, more likely, fraud. My banks are very
aggressively monitoring transactions and they will call me immediately when
they see a suspicious transaction.  I have even had restaurant transactions
declined from time to time when they could not contact me immediately.
That can be embarrassing when we go to a restaurant that charges more than
our average restaurant bill to celebrate a birthday or whatever, but it
beats the alternative.

I can still use the import process as my tool to look for errors or
fraudulent transactions that they might have missed.  My rationale for
accepting their posting dates is that my list then closely matches theirs
if ever a need arises to decide whether an overdraft charge is correctly
assessed or whether a valid payment was declined by the bank.  I would not
consider it wrong to instead use the dates that I initiate transactions,
it's just not my preference.



On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 10:41 PM Adrien Monteleone <
adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net> wrote:

> While there are other considerations, such as cash versus accrual and
> following the Recognition Principle, I see this as more of a general
> case of Your Books vs. the Bank's Books.
>
> You keep Your Books.
>
> The Bank keeps theirs.
>
> You then reconcile the two. (which does *not* involve changing dates)
>
> Simply copying what the bank has misses the opportunity to catch someone
> else's errors. (they *do* happen)
>
> This is a similar question of entering your own transactions as they
> occur, or just downloading from the bank and importing.
>
> It is a personal choice, but can have other implications as noted.
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
> On 4/8/24 5:11 PM, R Losey wrote:
> > Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always dated a
> > transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering
> credit
> > card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.
> >
> > Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he said
> that
> > he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his
> transactions.
> >
> > I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> > method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or perhaps
> > it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this list
> > to see what people think about it.
> >
> >  From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> > difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> >
> >
> > After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that the
> > transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> > transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> > month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the 28th.
> My
> > friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday
> hits
> > just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long run
> > everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look odd.
> > Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.
>
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>


-- 
David Carlson
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[G R Hewitt]

I always put the date the transaction took place, both for my personal
accounts and when I was working in accounts.
Same went for invoices, credits etc., the date on the document was the date
that was input.
To my mind, to do otherwise would do nothing but lead to confusion.

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 at 23:12, R Losey  wrote:

> Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always dated a
> transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering credit
> card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.
>
> Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he said that
> he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his transactions.
>
> I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or perhaps
> it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this list
> to see what people think about it.
>
> From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
>
>
> After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that the
> transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the 28th. My
> friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday hits
> just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long run
> everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look odd.
> Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.
>
> I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.
> --
> _
> Richard Losey
> rlo...@gmail.com
> Micah 6:8
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Adrien Monteleone]

While there are other considerations, such as cash versus accrual and 
following the Recognition Principle, I see this as more of a general 
case of Your Books vs. the Bank's Books.


You keep Your Books.

The Bank keeps theirs.

You then reconcile the two. (which does *not* involve changing dates)

Simply copying what the bank has misses the opportunity to catch someone 
else's errors. (they *do* happen)


This is a similar question of entering your own transactions as they 
occur, or just downloading from the bank and importing.


It is a personal choice, but can have other implications as noted.

Regards,
Adrien

On 4/8/24 5:11 PM, R Losey wrote:

Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always dated a
transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering credit
card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.

Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he said that
he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his transactions.

I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or perhaps
it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this list
to see what people think about it.

 From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?


After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that the
transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the 28th. My
friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday hits
just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long run
everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look odd.
Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.


___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Christopher Lam]

This is the formal terminology that the accountancy expert bodies deem
"revenue recognition". Numerous formal (see IFRS and GAAP) publications
exist, with a much better supporting evidence than our informal discussions
here.

On Tue, 9 Apr 2024, 6:12 am R Losey,  wrote:

> Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always dated a
> transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering credit
> card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.
>
> Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he said that
> he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his transactions.
>
> I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or perhaps
> it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this list
> to see what people think about it.
>
> From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
>
>
> After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that the
> transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the 28th. My
> friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday hits
> just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long run
> everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look odd.
> Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.
>
> I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.
> --
> _
> Richard Losey
> rlo...@gmail.com
> Micah 6:8
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[Liz]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 17:11:37 -0500
R Losey  wrote:

> Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always
> dated a transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when
> entering credit card transactions, I use the date that I actually
> used the credit card.
> 
> Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he
> said that he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of
> his transactions.
> 
> I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
> method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or
> perhaps it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up
> to this list to see what people think about it.
> 
> From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
> difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?
> 
> 
> After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that
> the transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
> transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
> month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the
> 28th. My friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend
> or holiday hits just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees
> it. In the long run everything should be the same, but the monthly
> sub-totals can look odd. Checks can be even worse... someone may hang
> onto one for weeks.
> 
> I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.

I think it is a philosophical difference.
There are legal ramifications, especially when you are spending money.
If you future date transactions you may spend money you don't actually
have. In my jurisdiction a business doing this is in big trouble, for
"trading while insolvent". 
It is not the difference between cash and accrual accounting, but is
part of the differences.

Liz
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

[GNC] Recording transactions (date)

[R Losey]

Since I first learned about recording transactions, I have always dated a
transaction on the date I wrote the check; similarly, when entering credit
card transactions, I use the date that I actually used the credit card.

Recently, however, I was having a discussion with a friend and he said that
he uses the bank or credit card date of entry for all of his transactions.

I thought this was strange - probably because it is different from the
method I've used all of my life. Perhaps I am the odd one... or perhaps
it's merely a matter of choice, so I thought I'd bring it up to this list
to see what people think about it.

>From (a very brief) research about this topic, perhaps this is the
difference between cash basis accounting and accrual accounting?


After thinking about it for a bit, one issue with using the date that the
transactions occur is the reports, especially if one has repeating
transactions.  For example, if the satellite service bill is paid each
month on the 28th, using my method, I record a transaction on the 28th. My
friend will see it on the 29th or 30th, but if the weekend or holiday hits
just right, it can be the 1st or 2nd before he sees it. In the long run
everything should be the same, but the monthly sub-totals can look odd.
Checks can be even worse... someone may hang onto one for weeks.

I'd appreciate thoughts on the topic.
-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.