On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:45:22 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption:
[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the
book with their hands and
then say: This is from Allah, so that they may
take for it a small
And again, for background, thegalling part which made me want to look at this question was aprevious statement that the Bahai faith was the first religion tobelieve in gender equality.
Abdu'l-Baha says that "in the sight of Baha, women are accounted the same as men". He qualifies this
G:
I don't have a problem with the idea that the heart of the Gospel'smessage is contained in the New Testament.
Especially If you look at all the ancient Christian texts as awhole I'm confident that the Gospel is in there.
J:
Question: How do you justify needing the Qur'an or Islam if the above
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:02:30 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So yes, there are a number of differences in the roles of men and
women in the Bahai faith. I didn't say Women are horribly exploited
by sexism and patriarchy throughout the
G:
I think the argument is that if the Quran is the word of God, and God's speech is an eternal attribute of God related in a particular way with his essence, then the implication is that in some, way, shape, or form, the Quran is uncreated.
J:
I would say God's speech is an eternal attribute of
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:43:39 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Gilberto, you wrote: Some situations now are like
situations then, and if we understand the connection properly
one can act accordingly.
Sandra:
Undoubtedly, a Muslim will follow the teachings of
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:12:37 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/22/2004 9:46:05 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:
In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors.
Doesn't collective security include fighting against
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 06:53:26 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G:
I think the argument is that if the Quran is the word of God, and God's
speech is an eternal attribute of God related in a particular way with his
essence, then the implication is that in some, way, shape, or
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations arelargely the same.
Not so sure. There are many types of killing.
1. Human killing humanfor revenge.
2. Human killing animal for food.
3. Human killing human to prevent him from suffering (crushed under a
Gilberto,
At 03:20 AM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
The existence of ANY differences, make a qualified statement more accurate
than an unqualified statement.
That is only if one mixes paradigms.
1. Women and men are equal in the context of the Baha'i revelational paradigm.
2. Equality is whatever
G: The Quran describes God in certain ways and on the one hand you want to recognize that God is so amazing that words don't quite do him justice. At the same time, on the other hand, if you go too far in this direction you end up rejecting and denying God's own description of Himself in
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 06:29:07 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G:
I don't have a problem with the idea that the heart of the Gospel's
message is contained in the New Testament.
Especially If you look at all the ancient Christian texts as a
whole I'm confident that the
Gilberto,
At 08:10 AM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
Mutzilites, Shiis and I guess Bahais generally took the position that the
Quran was created.
I don't know if there is an official Baha'i position on this subject. If so,
I would defer to it. However, IMO, the Qur'an is neither created nor uncreated.
G: [Islam is] clearer and more reliable and purer as a guide [than the Christianity/Judaism].
J: It is interesting that you say clearer and purer instead of clearest and purest. Do you anticipate anything clearer and purer than Islam coming around? Why not accept Baha'i as clearer and purer than
Dear Friends:
I, for one, have been directly involved in the review process (as a
reviewer). From my perspective, review is in no way a form of censorship,
but is, instead, a means of preventing gross errors.
For example, I have seen works (which will remain unnamed) that had
questionable
I'm not sure if something is getting lost though. There are at least
two levels to this. The level of practice, and the level of words. On
the level of practice, there are certain differences in the Bahai
faith in terms of the respective roles of women and men. If it were up
to you or certain
You have brought up hikmat a number of times. How does hikmat come into play in this regard?
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm not sure if something is getting lost though. There are at leasttwo levels to this. The level of practice, and the level of words. Onthe level of practice,
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:09:39 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations are
largely the same.
Not so sure. There are many types of killing.
I agree. Perhaps I was unclear. I certainly agree
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:09:39 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations are
largely the same.
Not so sure. There are many types of killing.
6. Human killing human to defend one's religion
Gilberto,
At 09:39 AM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
I'm not sure if something is getting lost though. There are at least two
levels to this. The level of practice, and the level of words. On the level
of practice, there are certain differences in the Bahai faith in terms of the
respective roles of
Why not accept Baha'i as clearer and purer than Islam? G: Off the top of my head, I don't think the Bahai understanding of Islamdoes it justice. And I haven't been convinced that the Bahai figuresare who they say they are.
J: Fair enough. To be constructive, I think you are unwilling to let go
G: Islam doesn't start wars or conduct mass killings. Muslims who violateIslam's teachings might do that. But Islam doesn't. That's part of theproblem with the Bahai perspective on Islam. If the ideals are sound,I really don't care what so-called Muslims do. Bad Muslims don'tdisprove Islam.
J: I
G: The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stoppersecution. This would have saved lives.
J: So are you justifying War in some instances related to stopping religious persecution?Doesn't this contradict what you said in the other email that all wars were committed by bad
The correct wording of this is as follows:
According to the ordinances of the Faith of God, women are the equals of
men in all rights save only that of membership on the Universal House of
Justice, for, as hath been stated in the text of the Book, both the Head and
the members of the House of
In a message dated 12/23/2004 9:27:16 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But I think
the Quran and Islam is clearer and more reliable andpurer as a
guide.
So do I. Of course, that argument is extended to the Baha`i Revelation from
my point of view.
Regards,
Scott
In a message dated 12/23/2004 10:05:04 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Bad Muslims
don'tdisprove Islam. And nice Bahais don't prove the teachings of the
Bahaifaith.
Quite correct. One should never measure the truth of the Revealor by the
misdeed of His followers.
In a message dated 12/23/2004 10:48:14 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
J: I do
not know Muslim history all that well. Are you saying that all the wars
that Islam was involved in were all committed by Bad Muslims? What about
the wars that Muhammad and the Khalifs
Hi, Scott,
At 12:11 PM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
Civil war is a phenomenon pretty much unknown in tribes. Tribes make warfare
within anathema. Blood-feud is tightly controlled with the tribe.
In other words, tribes are, by definition, endogamous unions. Nations are
exogamous.
With regards, Mark
In a message dated 12/23/2004 12:24:10 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In other
words, tribes are, by definition, endogamous unions. Nations are
exogamous.
I knew we could rely on you for the proper sociological term. I studied the
phenomena from the historical
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:18:26 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why not accept Baha'i as clearer and purer than Islam?
G: Off the top of my head, I don't think the Bahai understanding of Islam
does it justice. And I haven't been convinced that the Bahai figures
are who
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:47:36 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G: Islam doesn't start wars or conduct mass killings. Muslims who violate
Islam's teachings might do that. But Islam doesn't. That's part of the
problem with the Bahai perspective on Islam. If the ideals are
Gilberto,
At 12:51 PM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
But is this a morally significant difference? The Hutu and Tutsi were brought
up elsewhere. I mean, randomly cutting up the non-combatants on other side
with machetes is going to be wrong whether the other side is a tribe or a
nation
I don't know
In a message dated 12/23/2004 1:12:53 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
However, the
Bahai writings are actually clear that the Quran is thepreserved
faithfully recorded word of God. So whatever else Bahaismight say about
Muslims or Muslim institutions, they have to
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:01:26 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/23/2004 12:46:54 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Okay, what exactly is the difference in your definitions of tribe
and nation and more importantly why is it a morally
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:03:09 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G: The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stop
persecution. This would have saved lives.
J: So are you justifying War in some instances related to stopping religious
persecution? Doesn't
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But I would think that the value of a human life doesn't go up or downlike hemlines either. I would think that in general if a certain actof killingwas wrong after 1844 it wouldhave been wrong before too,no?
J: One wayI wouldrespond is to say that
In a message dated 12/23/2004 1:22:08 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I could be
wrong but myimpression isn't that Sunni and Shii readings of history
arediametrically opposed. It's more about volume than direction. The
shiare so zealous about the imams that anyone
In a message dated 12/23/2004 1:28:02 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
One answer
would be that any religion worth its salt will tap intosomething deep and
long-lasting about the human condition and won't bejust subject to moral
fads which go up and down like
Gilberto asked if Baha`i's believe that the universe is unending, and how
does that differ from the Qur'anic and Biblical idea of "The Day of Judgement"
and the "end of the World".
I would like to suggest that Baha`u'llah makes clear that Creation is born
anew at the advent of any of the
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:08:27 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/23/2004 1:22:08 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I could be wrong but my
impression isn't that Sunni and Shii readings of history are
diametrically opposed. It's more about
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gilberto Simpson
Sent: 23 December 2004 15:08
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: Essence of God vs. The Word of God
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 06:53:26 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G:
I think
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:53:18 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/23/2004 4:43:12 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL
PROTECTED] writes:
The conflicts among the Babi-Bahai figures and their
families seem to me pretty contentious and treacherous,
more
Are you saying that Sunnis view Shiism asbasically a subset of Sunni Islam, since Sunni also acknowledge the family of Muhammad? What about Shiites, how do they view Sunnis? Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:53:18 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: In a
Gilberto Simpson kindly
writes:
**
Can't the two issues be thought of separately? I think the doctrine
that the Quran is uncreated is pretty clearly the consensus sunni
position and there are many different scholars who accept it and even
insist on it.
But the doctrine of wahdat-al-wujud of ibn
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