Dear Bill,
I suspect there was little debate because the use of gut trebles (and the general advice to tune as high as possible without breaking the string) placed a general and well understood limitation on the size of lute required for a particular pitch and tuning. If singers couldn't transpose sufficiently (because of their particular vocal range) then the lute part would have to be re-intabulated or a different sized instrument employed; tho' this seems an extreme remedy unless one had numerous lutes to hand and the vocal transposition required was large. But to say there was no acknowledgement of the issue is not true. To take just one example: Mace (amongst others) clearly recounts how theorbo pitch is related to instrument size and that larger instruments require low octaves on the second course as well as the first etc..... regards Martyn --- On Wed, 30/11/11, William Samson <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: William Samson <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392 To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 8:35 I sometimes wonder why I haven't come across much in the way of contemporary agonisings about pitch standards and compatibility of lutes with their wide range of scale lengths for a given nominal pitch. Presumably this would have been a problem for the old guys too? Or have I missed something? Bill From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; Baroque lute Dmth <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2011, 12:46 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392 I think the same applies to lute accompaniment as well if the piece is in tablature. Of course if its just a bass line one can transpose I suppose but, provided the piece is reasonably within range, singers are generally OK to transpose on sight - unless, of course, they're cursed with 'perfect' (modern) pitch...... Martyn --- On Tue, 29/11/11, Anthony Hind <[1][4]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Anthony Hind <[2][5]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392 To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 12:11 I was rather thinking of a singer being accompanied by a single lute, in which perhaps the choice of lute might be secondary and determined by the best range, and tonal agreement with the singer. In the case of a singer adapting to an orchestra, I imagine you would be right. Anthony ----- Mail original ----- De : Martyn Hodgson <[1][4][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> A : William Samson <[2][5][8]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>; "[3][6][9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4][7][10]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Anthony Hind <[5][8][11]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> Cc : Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 12h58 Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392 Dear Anthony, Unless outside their range, won't singers simply transpose to fit with the key/pitch of the accompaniment rather than the band having to change instruments? regards Martyn --- On Tue, 29/11/11, Anthony Hind <[6][9][12]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Anthony Hind <[7][10][13]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392 To: "William Samson" <[8][11][14]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>, "[9][12][15]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[10][13][16]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 11:41 For accompanying singers, also, the answer, unfortunately, is to have a number of different sized lutes. Anthony ----- Mail original ----- De : William Samson <[1][11][14][17]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> A : Anthony Hind <[2][12][15][18]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; sterling price <[3][13][16][19]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> Cc : "[4][14][17][20]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[5][15][18][21]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 10h27 Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392 As far as I can see the only show-stopper for a lute tuned to 392Hz is ensemble work, when the other musicians are tuned to a higher pitch standard - usually 415Hz. That's where a 66cm baroque lute would be useful. Having said that, not many lutes that small have survived. Of course, the old guys (unlike me) might have been able to transpose a semitone up without any trouble. Bill From: Anthony Hind <[6][16][19][22]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> To: sterling price <[7][17][20][23]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> Cc: "[8][18][21][24]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[9][19][22][25]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2011, 9:06 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392 My 70 cm Warwick works well at 392Hz. While going from 407Hz to 392Hz, I wanted to raise the tension of the basses slightly, so I just shifted them along one increment (C1 to D2 etc). However, I changed most of the mid and top strings. The basses were two years old, but still seem good. A smaller lute, as Ed suggests, might be better at 415. Anthony PS My intuition might be that certain pieces are better played at 392, but perhaps not all. __________________________________________________________________ De : sterling price <[1][10][20][23][26]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> A : howard posner <[2][11][21][24][27]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; baroque lute list <[3][12][22][25][28]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 5h18 Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392 Hi-After just playing it now, I like the basses but the 1st and 2nd courses could be higher tension of course so I think I will go that way. Just curious--how many of you are playing baroque lutes at A=392? I think it works quite well on a larger lute, but I'm not convinced it should be done on a smaller lute(ie below 69cm). My 70.5cm Burkholzer will stay at 415. -Sterling From: howard posner <[1][4][13][23][26][29]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> To: baroque lute list <[2][5][14][24][27][30]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:15 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392 On Nov 28, 2011, at 5:15 PM, sterling price wrote: > My question is: should I > just tune the same 415 strings down or get a new set of strings for > 392? Yes. Those are pretty much the only two options. > Right now it is at 392 but I'm wondering if it might sound better > with new strings. Any thoughts? Do you like it at 392 now? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3][6][15][25][28][31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/in dex.htm l -- -- References 1. mailto:[7][16][26][29][32]howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:[8][17][27][30][33]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. 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