FWIW, in the PEWG call
<https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-pointerevents-minutes.html#t03> last week
there was some question of how this relates to the pen customizations
proposal <https://github.com/darktears/pen-customizations>. I suppose the
general question is whether this should be an additional part of some
hardware specific device customization in
pointerEvent.penCustomizationsDetails. I think there is a risk of shipping
this without consensus on the general shape, as it will make it harder to
change if it's decided there's a better way to expose the information
without breaking existing uses. We should probably take the API that has
been incubated and bring it back for discussion in the working group.
On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 12:15 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev <
blink-dev@chromium.org> wrote:
> Hi all, any more questions or concerns?
>
> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:44:58 PM UTC-8 Sahir Vellani wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify, I've made the change in the deviceId verbiage in the
>> spec, not pointerId :)
>>
>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:40:00 PM UTC-8 Sahir Vellani wrote:
>>
>>> I can't say what the reasoning is for that behavior in
>>> PointerEvent.pointerId, as I was not involved. However, I will make a
>>> change in the spec to only use the value of 1 for primary mouse device.
>>> There may be a scenario where PointerEvent.deviceId is unsupported by
>>> the UA (separate from an invalid id of -1); e.g, on platforms where the
>>> feature is unimplemented. In that case, developers might have a check like
>>> if(event.deviceId) {...}. If the deviceId is 0 for a valid reason, it will
>>> fail that check. I see no harm in limiting the deviceId from primary mouse
>>> to 1. It will avoid this interop issue and make the feature more friendly
>>> to web developers.
>>>
>>
0 was originally reserved to mean a non-pointer device. This was discussed
in https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/343 where we discovered that
Firefox has, and continues to use 0 for mouse pointer events where chrome
and safari use 1.
On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 6:26:20 PM UTC-8 mike...@chromium.org
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Forgive my ignorance around this API generally, but is there any reason
>>>> the spec can't require a single value? If not, why not?
>>>> On 1/18/24 3:05 PM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Appreciate the feedback! Yes the PR was reviewed by WG members for any
>>>> major concerns; but I believe there will be more comprehensive feedback
>>>> once the Level 3 spec lands. Regarding your concern, the language is based
>>>> on that of PointerEvent.pointerId. The ultimate goal here is to
>>>> differentiate between devices, and like pointerId, the way the ids are
>>>> assigned has been left to the UA. I think web developers should be able to
>>>> rely on PointerEvent.pointerType to confirm whether the pointer event comes
>>>> from the primary mouse device. In Chromium, we transmit 1 for the mouse for
>>>> PointerEvent.deviceId.
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 7:39:48 AM UTC-8 yoav...@chromium.org
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 3:51:59 PM UTC+1 vmp...@google.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 6:08 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev <
>>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all, good news!
>>>>>
>>>>> Reviving this thread because we have accomplished:
>>>>> 1. TAG Review Completion: Extending the PointerEvent with Unique
>>>>> DeviceId Attribute · Issue #880 · w3ctag/design-reviews (github.com)
>>>>> <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/880> Resolution:
>>>>> Satisfied
>>>>> 2. WICG Repository for standardization discussions. Link to explainer
>>>>> in WICG Repo:
>>>>> pointer-event-extensions/pointer-event-device-id-explainer.md
>>>>> at main · WICG/pointer-event-extensions (github.com)
>>>>> <https://github.com/WICG/pointer-event-extensions/blob/main/pointer-event-device-id-explainer.md>
>>>>> 3. A PR against the PointerEvent spec with proposed changes: Add
>>>>> deviceId to PointerEvent spec by sahirv · Pull Request #495 ·
>>>>> w3c/pointerevents (github.com)
>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/495/files> We will be
>>>>> waiting for Spec Level 3 to come out before this can be merged; but this
>>>>> provides an official starting point for the standardized description of
>>>>> this feature. Based on the feedback received, I don't anticipate any major
>>>>> changes to the design.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the PR! Was it reviewed by other WG members?
>>>>> For example, "User agents MAY reserve a generic `deviceId` value of
>>>>> `0` or `1` for events generated by the primary mouse device." seems risky
>>>>> from an interop perspective. E.g. developers may rely on some UAs doing
>>>>> that and fail when others don't.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For posterity, I was initially unsure why this wasn't an issue on the
>>>>> w3c/pointerevents, but it does seem like the discussion happened there and
>>>>> folks agreed to move this in WICG: https://github.com/w3c/
>>>>> pointerevents/issues/353 \o/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Reviewers, can we please get another review for shipping this feature?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:55:43 AM UTC-7
>>>>> sligh...@chromium.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that this needs a spec PR and the explainer should at least
>>>>> migrate to WICG before we agree to ship. Also, can you please link to the
>>>>> TAG review?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 4:16:41 AM UTC-7 Yoav Weiss wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 12:42 AM Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> LGTM1
>>>>> On 10/15/23 11:07 AM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the feedback, I wasn't aware they were mandatory. The steps
>>>>> have been started, just awaiting feedback from Security and Privacy
>>>>> reviewers. I've received LGTMs for all other areas. After our response to
>>>>> WebKit's question, they did not have any further follow-up questions. So
>>>>> I'm assuming all is well.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 4:59:15 AM UTC-7 Daniel Bratell
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I see that various mandatory steps in chromestatus
>>>>> (privacy,security,enterprise,debuggability,testing) seems to be
>>>>> unstarted. It is possible they were made mandatory after you create the
>>>>> entry, but it would be good if you could get them started now at least.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, it's unfortunate that TAG and standards positions requests have
>>>>> not resulted in anything, but that is hardly your fault. There were some
>>>>> questions in the WebKit request. Is all that ok now?
>>>>>
>>>>> /Daniel
>>>>> On 2023-10-06 20:10, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 9:03:35 AM UTC-7 mike...@chromium.org
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/4/23 7:43 PM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Contact emails
>>>>> gerc...@microsoft.com, sahir....@microsoft.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Explainer
>>>>> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/
>>>>> PointerEventDeviceId/explainer.md
>>>>>
>>>>> Specification
>>>>> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/
>>>>> PointerEventDeviceId/explainer.md
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a more formal spec for this?
>>>>> Any support outside of Microsoft that would enable y'all to move this
>>>>> to the WICG?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Summary
>>>>>
>>>>> As devices with advanced pen input capabilities are becoming
>>>>> increasingly prevalent, it is important that the web platform continues to
>>>>> evolve to fully support these advanced features in order to unlock rich
>>>>> experiences for both end users and developers. One such advancement is the
>>>>> ability for a device's digitizer to recognize more than one pen device
>>>>> interacting with it simultaneously. This feature is an extension to the
>>>>> PointerEvent interface to include a new attribute, deviceId, that
>>>>> represents a session-persistent, document isolated, unique identifier that
>>>>> a developer can reliably use to identify individual pens interacting with
>>>>> the page.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Blink component
>>>>> Blink>Input
>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3EInput>
>>>>>
>>>>> TAG review
>>>>> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/880
>>>>>
>>>>> TAG review status
>>>>> Pending. TAG review has been pending for 2 months.
>>>>>
>>>>> Risks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Gecko*: No signal (https://github.com/mozilla/
>>>>> standards-positions/issues/715)
>>>>>
>>>>> *WebKit*: No signal (https://github.com/WebKit/
>>>>> standards-positions/issues/102)
>>>>>
>>>>> *Web developers*: No signals
>>>>>
>>>>> *Other signals*:
>>>>>
>>>>> WebView application risks
>>>>>
>>>>> *Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such
>>>>> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?*
>>>>>
>>>>> None
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Debuggability
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows,
>>>>> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?
>>>>> No
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md>
>>>>> ?
>>>>> No. However, there are web tests in Chromium that test
>>>>> PointerEventInit with this feature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Flag name on chrome://flags
>>>>> PointerEventDeviceId
>>>>>
>>>>> Finch feature name
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Non-finch justification
>>>>> Edge origin trials successfully underway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any Origin Trial feedback you can share?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Absolutely, the feature has been working well. Our partners (Microsoft
>>>>> Whiteboard) have enabled the feature that is dependent on this API for
>>>>> their general audience! We did not receive any constructive feedback. This
>>>>> API is being used by them on Microsoft Surface Hub devices, which support
>>>>> multi-pen inking.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Requires code in //chrome?
>>>>> False
>>>>>
>>>>> Measurement
>>>>> PointerEventDeviceId use counter implemented.
>>>>>
>>>>> Availability expectation
>>>>> Initially available on Chromium browsers on Windows.
>>>>>
>>>>> Out of curiosity, are there limitations on other platforms that
>>>>> prevent supporting this feature?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We haven't been able to get our hands on hardware that supports other
>>>>> platforms in addition to multi pen inking in order to implement and
>>>>> appropriately test this feature. We welcome any sponsors for implementing
>>>>> and testing this, especially on Linux/Android.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Adoption expectation
>>>>> Feature is used by specific partner(s) to provide functionality
>>>>> immediately upon launch.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adoption plan
>>>>> This feature has been through origin trials on Edge. It is being used
>>>>> by partners that provide features on devices with multi pen support.
>>>>>
>>>>> Non-OSS dependencies
>>>>>
>>>>> *Does the feature depend on any code or APIs outside the Chromium open
>>>>> source repository and its open-source dependencies to function?*
>>>>> Operating system API's are used to obtain the device id, and are
>>>>> necessary for this feature to function. Please see the security
>>>>> questionnaire in the TAG review on security and privacy concerns related
>>>>> to
>>>>> the use of these APIs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Estimated milestones
>>>>> Shipping on desktop
>>>>> 120
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anticipated spec changes
>>>>>
>>>>> *Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat
>>>>> or interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known github
>>>>> issues in the project for the feature specification) whose resolution may
>>>>> introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to naming or structure
>>>>> of
>>>>> the API in a non-backward-compatible way).*
>>>>> WICG Proposal: https://github.com/WICG/proposals/issues/101 No web
>>>>> compat/interop risk.
>>>>>
>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status
>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5114132234240000
>>>>>
>>>>> Links to previous Intent discussions
>>>>> Intent to prototype: https://groups.google.com/a/
>>>>> chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/SA0PR00MB1033E5DE0BDE42239E647
>>>>> E9AFB189%40SA0PR00MB1033.namprd00.prod.outlook.com
>>>>>
>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status
>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>.
>>>>>
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