Thanks for chiming in, Robert! Sahir - can you let us know once the PEWG has discussed this and you feel this is good to go?
On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 at 8:26:32 PM UTC+1 sahir....@microsoft.com wrote: > Thanks Rick and Robert! > > Rick, I agree that it would be relatively easy to change/deprecate > deviceId. There are not too many devices at the moment that support > multiple pens, and not many web apps either. I think the cost to the > websites of not having Chrome support this for the foreseeable future is > greater than changing where the deviceId gets read from. The Pen > Customizations api looks quite cool, although deviceId is more generic. > > Robert, I'm happy to wait a week or two more for the PEWG to discuss this > further. Thanks for putting deviceId in the agenda, and of course we can > rework this if a more appropriate alternative is proposed. :) > > On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 at 11:01:05 AM UTC-8 fla...@chromium.org > wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 1:00 PM Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org> wrote: > > FWIW, in the PEWG call > <https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-pointerevents-minutes.html#t03> last week > there was some question of how this relates to the pen customizations > proposal <https://github.com/darktears/pen-customizations>. I suppose the > general question is whether this should be an additional part of some > hardware specific device customization in > pointerEvent.penCustomizationsDetails. I think there is a risk of > shipping this without consensus on the general shape, as it will make it > harder to change if it's decided there's a better way to expose the > information without breaking existing uses. We should probably take the API > that has been incubated and bring it back for discussion in the working > group. > > > I've raised this for discussion > <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/353#issuecomment-1906641207> to > try to reach consensus on the general idea. I also realize my comment comes > across more critical than I meant it to be. There is risk to locking in the > current proposal, but I also suspect we'd be able to make a breaking change > if needed, so I did not intend my comment to be blocking. Apologies! > > On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 12:15 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev < > blin...@chromium.org> wrote: > > Hi all, any more questions or concerns? > > On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:44:58 PM UTC-8 Sahir Vellani wrote: > > Just to clarify, I've made the change in the deviceId verbiage in the > spec, not pointerId :) > > On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:40:00 PM UTC-8 Sahir Vellani wrote: > > I can't say what the reasoning is for that behavior in > PointerEvent.pointerId, as I was not involved. However, I will make a > change in the spec to only use the value of 1 for primary mouse device. > There may be a scenario where PointerEvent.deviceId is unsupported by the > UA (separate from an invalid id of -1); e.g, on platforms where the feature > is unimplemented. In that case, developers might have a check like > if(event.deviceId) {...}. If the deviceId is 0 for a valid reason, it will > fail that check. I see no harm in limiting the deviceId from primary mouse > to 1. It will avoid this interop issue and make the feature more friendly > to web developers. > > > 0 was originally reserved to mean a non-pointer device. This was discussed > in https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/343 where we discovered > that Firefox has, and continues to use 0 for mouse pointer events where > chrome and safari use 1. > > On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 6:26:20 PM UTC-8 mike...@chromium.org > wrote: > > Forgive my ignorance around this API generally, but is there any reason > the spec can't require a single value? If not, why not? > On 1/18/24 3:05 PM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: > > Appreciate the feedback! Yes the PR was reviewed by WG members for any > major concerns; but I believe there will be more comprehensive feedback > once the Level 3 spec lands. Regarding your concern, the language is based > on that of PointerEvent.pointerId. The ultimate goal here is to > differentiate between devices, and like pointerId, the way the ids are > assigned has been left to the UA. I think web developers should be able to > rely on PointerEvent.pointerType to confirm whether the pointer event comes > from the primary mouse device. In Chromium, we transmit 1 for the mouse for > PointerEvent.deviceId. > > On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 7:39:48 AM UTC-8 yoav...@chromium.org > wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 3:51:59 PM UTC+1 vmp...@google.com > wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 6:08 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev < > blin...@chromium.org> wrote: > > Hi all, good news! > > Reviving this thread because we have accomplished: > 1. TAG Review Completion: Extending the PointerEvent with Unique > DeviceId Attribute · Issue #880 · w3ctag/design-reviews (github.com) > <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/880> Resolution: > Satisfied > 2. WICG Repository for standardization discussions. Link to explainer in > WICG Repo: pointer-event-extensions/pointer-event-device-id-explainer.md > at main · WICG/pointer-event-extensions (github.com) > <https://github.com/WICG/pointer-event-extensions/blob/main/pointer-event-device-id-explainer.md> > 3. A PR against the PointerEvent spec with proposed changes: Add > deviceId to PointerEvent spec by sahirv · Pull Request #495 · > w3c/pointerevents (github.com) > <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/495/files> We will be waiting > for Spec Level 3 to come out before this can be merged; but this provides > an official starting point for the standardized description of this > feature. Based on the feedback received, I don't anticipate any major > changes to the design. > > > Thanks for the PR! Was it reviewed by other WG members? > For example, "User agents MAY reserve a generic `deviceId` value of `0` or > `1` for events generated by the primary mouse device." seems risky from an > interop perspective. E.g. developers may rely on some UAs doing that and > fail when others don't. > > > For posterity, I was initially unsure why this wasn't an issue on the > w3c/pointerevents, but it does seem like the discussion happened there and > folks agreed to move this in WICG: https://github.com/w3c/ > pointerevents/issues/353 \o/ > > > Reviewers, can we please get another review for shipping this feature? > > On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:55:43 AM UTC-7 sligh...@chromium.org > wrote: > > I agree that this needs a spec PR and the explainer should at least > migrate to WICG before we agree to ship. Also, can you please link to the > TAG review? > > Best, > > Alex > > On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 4:16:41 AM UTC-7 Yoav Weiss wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 12:42 AM Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org> wrote: > > LGTM1 > On 10/15/23 11:07 AM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback, I wasn't aware they were mandatory. The steps > have been started, just awaiting feedback from Security and Privacy > reviewers. I've received LGTMs for all other areas. After our response to > WebKit's question, they did not have any further follow-up questions. So > I'm assuming all is well. > > On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 4:59:15 AM UTC-7 Daniel Bratell wrote: > > I see that various mandatory steps in chromestatus > (privacy,security,enterprise,debuggability,testing) seems to be > unstarted. It is possible they were made mandatory after you create the > entry, but it would be good if you could get them started now at least. > > Also, it's unfortunate that TAG and standards positions requests have not > resulted in anything, but that is hardly your fault. There were some > questions in the WebKit request. Is all that ok now? > > /Daniel > On 2023-10-06 20:10, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 9:03:35 AM UTC-7 mike...@chromium.org wrote: > > > On 10/4/23 7:43 PM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: > > Contact emails > gerc...@microsoft.com, sahir....@microsoft.com > > Explainer > https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/ > PointerEventDeviceId/explainer.md > > Specification > https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/ > PointerEventDeviceId/explainer.md > > > Is there a more formal spec for this? > Any support outside of Microsoft that would enable y'all to move this to > the WICG? > > > > > Summary > > As devices with advanced pen input capabilities are becoming increasingly > prevalent, it is important that the web platform continues to evolve to > fully support these advanced features in order to unlock rich experiences > for both end users and developers. One such advancement is the ability for > a device's digitizer to recognize more than one pen device interacting with > it simultaneously. This feature is an extension to the PointerEvent > interface to include a new attribute, deviceId, that represents a > session-persistent, document isolated, unique identifier that a developer > can reliably use to identify individual pens interacting with the page. > > > Blink component > Blink>Input > <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3EInput> > > TAG review > https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/880 > > TAG review status > Pending. TAG review has been pending for 2 months. > > Risks > > > Interoperability and Compatibility > > > *Gecko*: No signal (https://github.com/mozilla/ > standards-positions/issues/715) > > *WebKit*: No signal (https://github.com/WebKit/ > standards-positions/issues/102) > > *Web developers*: No signals > > *Other signals*: > > WebView application risks > > *Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such that > it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?* > > None > > > Debuggability > > > Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, Mac, > Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)? > No > > Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests > <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> > ? > No. However, there are web tests in Chromium that test PointerEventInit > with this feature. > > Flag name on chrome://flags > PointerEventDeviceId > > Finch feature name > > > Non-finch justification > Edge origin trials successfully underway. > > Any Origin Trial feedback you can share? > > > Absolutely, the feature has been working well. Our partners (Microsoft > Whiteboard) have enabled the feature that is dependent on this API for > their general audience! We did not receive any constructive feedback. This > API is being used by them on Microsoft Surface Hub devices, which support > multi-pen inking. > > > Requires code in //chrome? > False > > Measurement > PointerEventDeviceId use counter implemented. > > Availability expectation > Initially available on Chromium browsers on Windows. > > Out of curiosity, are there limitations on other platforms that prevent > supporting this feature? > > > We haven't been able to get our hands on hardware that supports other > platforms in addition to multi pen inking in order to implement and > appropriately test this feature. We welcome any sponsors for implementing > and testing this, especially on Linux/Android. > > > Adoption expectation > Feature is used by specific partner(s) to provide functionality > immediately upon launch. > > Adoption plan > This feature has been through origin trials on Edge. It is being used by > partners that provide features on devices with multi pen support. > > Non-OSS dependencies > > *Does the feature depend on any code or APIs outside the Chromium open > source repository and its open-source dependencies to function?* > Operating system API's are used to obtain the device id, and are necessary > for this feature to function. Please see the security questionnaire in the > TAG review on security and privacy concerns related to the use of these > APIs. > > Estimated milestones > Shipping on desktop > 120 > > > Anticipated spec changes > > *Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat or > interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known github issues > in the project for the feature specification) whose resolution may > introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to naming or structure of > the API in a non-backward-compatible way).* > WICG Proposal: https://github.com/WICG/proposals/issues/101 No web > compat/interop risk. > > Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status > https://chromestatus.com/feature/5114132234240000 > > Links to previous Intent discussions > Intent to prototype: https://groups.google.com/a/ > chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/SA0PR00MB1033E5DE0BDE42239E647 > E9AFB189%40SA0PR00MB1033.namprd00.prod.outlook.com > > This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status > <https://chromestatus.com/>. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/ > chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/PH0PR00MB1349B7917876E7AC505E7 > 90AFBCBA%40PH0PR00MB1349.namprd00.prod.outlook.com > <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/PH0PR00MB1349B7917876E7AC505E790AFBCBA%40PH0PR00MB1349.namprd00.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org. > > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/ > chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/c8f16bc4-8d21-450b-9178- > 964cba818a68n%40chromium.org > <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/c8f16bc4-8d21-450b-9178-964cba818a68n%40chromium.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/ > chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/8077a67d-4104-48c6-9f9b- > 09f9e6c8b022n%40chromium.org > <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/8077a67d-4104-48c6-9f9b-09f9e6c8b022n%40chromium.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. > > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/ > chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/13bad65e-6276-4567-b6e3- > 0961e44bc6d1%40chromium.org > <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/13bad65e-6276-4567-b6e3-0961e44bc6d1%40chromium.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. > > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/ > chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/cbc6e96b-0165-4e28-8f16- > 786f0dea7ac8n%40chromium.org > <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/cbc6e96b-0165-4e28-8f16-786f0dea7ac8n%40chromium.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/6afb2718-89f6-47d5-9052-d5ab2a8f849dn%40chromium.org > > <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/6afb2718-89f6-47d5-9052-d5ab2a8f849dn%40chromium.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/8ac964b1-99a0-4c7d-b9eb-d02b26bdb306n%40chromium.org > > <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/8ac964b1-99a0-4c7d-b9eb-d02b26bdb306n%40chromium.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "blink-dev" group. 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