I think deviceProperties is reasonable. The other question was when deviceId would be populated? E.g. should touches on the same touchscreen device have the same deviceId or should we only have a deviceId when we can uniquely identify the particular pointer? I suspect maybe the latter since otherwise you couldn't infer uniqueness from its existence.
Could you comment on the pointerevents issue <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/353> so that the context is there for the next meeting? I'll request that it be discussed again. On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 4:31 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev < blink-dev@chromium.org> wrote: > Thanks for the update Robert! That makes sense. > > What about deviceProperties? That would place the emphasis on the device > generating the pointer event; with "properties" being generic enough to > include different supported functions of the device. So we would have > something like > PointerEvent.deviceProperties.deviceId/PointerEvent.deviceProperties.preferredInkingColor > etc. > > Would you be able to clarify the next steps once the structure name has > been agreed upon? I believe we'll need to update the explainer, spec PR and > change the chromium implementation. Anything else? > This sounds good. On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 12:33:46 PM UTC-8 fla...@chromium.org > wrote: > >> We just discussed this yesterday where the consensus was that we thought >> it would be pragmatic to put this new device specific identifier into a >> common structure on the pointer event where other device specific >> customizations could later be added (e.g. those from the pen >> customizations proposal <https://github.com/darktears/pen-customizations>). >> This avoids needing to have new properties on the pointer event for each >> device specific customization attribute added. >> >> Another question that came up was how universal this customization was, >> i.e. whether there would be support for this on other platforms. >> >> @Sahir Vellani would you be able to suggest what you think the best >> structure name / property name for pointer specific identifier properties >> might be? >> >> I do agree with @Rick Byers that this is likely a niche API which we'll >> likely be able to change, I'm just trying to get ahead of breaking changes >> early. >> >> On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 11:33 AM Yoav Weiss (@Shopify) < >> yoav...@chromium.org> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for chiming in, Robert! >>> >>> Sahir - can you let us know once the PEWG has discussed this and you >>> feel this is good to go? >>> >>> On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 at 8:26:32 PM UTC+1 sahir....@microsoft.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Rick and Robert! >>>> >>>> Rick, I agree that it would be relatively easy to change/deprecate >>>> deviceId. There are not too many devices at the moment that support >>>> multiple pens, and not many web apps either. I think the cost to the >>>> websites of not having Chrome support this for the foreseeable future is >>>> greater than changing where the deviceId gets read from. The Pen >>>> Customizations api looks quite cool, although deviceId is more generic. >>>> >>>> Robert, I'm happy to wait a week or two more for the PEWG to discuss >>>> this further. Thanks for putting deviceId in the agenda, and of course we >>>> can rework this if a more appropriate alternative is proposed. :) >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 at 11:01:05 AM UTC-8 fla...@chromium.org >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 1:00 PM Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> FWIW, in the PEWG call >>>> <https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-pointerevents-minutes.html#t03> last >>>> week there was some question of how this relates to the pen >>>> customizations proposal >>>> <https://github.com/darktears/pen-customizations>. I suppose the >>>> general question is whether this should be an additional part of some >>>> hardware specific device customization in >>>> pointerEvent.penCustomizationsDetails. I think there is a risk of >>>> shipping this without consensus on the general shape, as it will make it >>>> harder to change if it's decided there's a better way to expose the >>>> information without breaking existing uses. We should probably take the API >>>> that has been incubated and bring it back for discussion in the working >>>> group. >>>> >>>> >>>> I've raised this for discussion >>>> <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/353#issuecomment-1906641207> >>>> to >>>> try to reach consensus on the general idea. I also realize my comment comes >>>> across more critical than I meant it to be. There is risk to locking in the >>>> current proposal, but I also suspect we'd be able to make a breaking change >>>> if needed, so I did not intend my comment to be blocking. Apologies! >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 12:15 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev < >>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, any more questions or concerns? >>>> >>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:44:58 PM UTC-8 Sahir Vellani wrote: >>>> >>>> Just to clarify, I've made the change in the deviceId verbiage in the >>>> spec, not pointerId :) >>>> >>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:40:00 PM UTC-8 Sahir Vellani wrote: >>>> >>>> I can't say what the reasoning is for that behavior in >>>> PointerEvent.pointerId, as I was not involved. However, I will make a >>>> change in the spec to only use the value of 1 for primary mouse device. >>>> There may be a scenario where PointerEvent.deviceId is unsupported by >>>> the UA (separate from an invalid id of -1); e.g, on platforms where the >>>> feature is unimplemented. In that case, developers might have a check like >>>> if(event.deviceId) {...}. If the deviceId is 0 for a valid reason, it will >>>> fail that check. I see no harm in limiting the deviceId from primary mouse >>>> to 1. It will avoid this interop issue and make the feature more friendly >>>> to web developers. >>>> >>>> >>>> 0 was originally reserved to mean a non-pointer device. This was >>>> discussed in https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/343 where we >>>> discovered that Firefox has, and continues to use 0 for mouse pointer >>>> events where chrome and safari use 1. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 6:26:20 PM UTC-8 mike...@chromium.org >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Forgive my ignorance around this API generally, but is there any reason >>>> the spec can't require a single value? If not, why not? >>>> On 1/18/24 3:05 PM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>> >>>> Appreciate the feedback! Yes the PR was reviewed by WG members for any >>>> major concerns; but I believe there will be more comprehensive feedback >>>> once the Level 3 spec lands. Regarding your concern, the language is based >>>> on that of PointerEvent.pointerId. The ultimate goal here is to >>>> differentiate between devices, and like pointerId, the way the ids are >>>> assigned has been left to the UA. I think web developers should be able to >>>> rely on PointerEvent.pointerType to confirm whether the pointer event comes >>>> from the primary mouse device. In Chromium, we transmit 1 for the mouse for >>>> PointerEvent.deviceId. >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 7:39:48 AM UTC-8 yoav...@chromium.org >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 3:51:59 PM UTC+1 vmp...@google.com >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 6:08 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev < >>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, good news! >>>> >>>> Reviving this thread because we have accomplished: >>>> 1. TAG Review Completion: Extending the PointerEvent with Unique >>>> DeviceId Attribute · Issue #880 · w3ctag/design-reviews (github.com) >>>> <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/880> Resolution: >>>> Satisfied >>>> 2. WICG Repository for standardization discussions. Link to explainer >>>> in WICG Repo: >>>> pointer-event-extensions/pointer-event-device-id-explainer.md >>>> at main · WICG/pointer-event-extensions (github.com) >>>> <https://github.com/WICG/pointer-event-extensions/blob/main/pointer-event-device-id-explainer.md> >>>> 3. A PR against the PointerEvent spec with proposed changes: Add >>>> deviceId to PointerEvent spec by sahirv · Pull Request #495 · >>>> w3c/pointerevents (github.com) >>>> <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/495/files> We will be >>>> waiting for Spec Level 3 to come out before this can be merged; but this >>>> provides an official starting point for the standardized description of >>>> this feature. Based on the feedback received, I don't anticipate any major >>>> changes to the design. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for the PR! Was it reviewed by other WG members? >>>> For example, "User agents MAY reserve a generic `deviceId` value of `0` >>>> or `1` for events generated by the primary mouse device." seems risky from >>>> an interop perspective. E.g. developers may rely on some UAs doing that and >>>> fail when others don't. >>>> >>>> >>>> For posterity, I was initially unsure why this wasn't an issue on the >>>> w3c/pointerevents, but it does seem like the discussion happened there and >>>> folks agreed to move this in WICG: https://github.com/w3c/ >>>> pointerevents/issues/353 \o/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Reviewers, can we please get another review for shipping this feature? >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:55:43 AM UTC-7 >>>> sligh...@chromium.org wrote: >>>> >>>> I agree that this needs a spec PR and the explainer should at least >>>> migrate to WICG before we agree to ship. Also, can you please link to the >>>> TAG review? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 4:16:41 AM UTC-7 Yoav Weiss wrote: >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 12:42 AM Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> LGTM1 >>>> On 10/15/23 11:07 AM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks for the feedback, I wasn't aware they were mandatory. The steps >>>> have been started, just awaiting feedback from Security and Privacy >>>> reviewers. I've received LGTMs for all other areas. After our response to >>>> WebKit's question, they did not have any further follow-up questions. So >>>> I'm assuming all is well. >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 4:59:15 AM UTC-7 Daniel Bratell wrote: >>>> >>>> I see that various mandatory steps in chromestatus >>>> (privacy,security,enterprise,debuggability,testing) seems to be >>>> unstarted. It is possible they were made mandatory after you create the >>>> entry, but it would be good if you could get them started now at least. >>>> >>>> Also, it's unfortunate that TAG and standards positions requests have >>>> not resulted in anything, but that is hardly your fault. There were some >>>> questions in the WebKit request. Is all that ok now? >>>> >>>> /Daniel >>>> On 2023-10-06 20:10, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 9:03:35 AM UTC-7 mike...@chromium.org >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/4/23 7:43 PM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>> >>>> Contact emails >>>> gerc...@microsoft.com, sahir....@microsoft.com >>>> >>>> Explainer >>>> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/ >>>> PointerEventDeviceId/explainer.md >>>> >>>> Specification >>>> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/ >>>> PointerEventDeviceId/explainer.md >>>> >>>> >>>> Is there a more formal spec for this? >>>> Any support outside of Microsoft that would enable y'all to move this >>>> to the WICG? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Summary >>>> >>>> As devices with advanced pen input capabilities are becoming >>>> increasingly prevalent, it is important that the web platform continues to >>>> evolve to fully support these advanced features in order to unlock rich >>>> experiences for both end users and developers. One such advancement is the >>>> ability for a device's digitizer to recognize more than one pen device >>>> interacting with it simultaneously. This feature is an extension to the >>>> PointerEvent interface to include a new attribute, deviceId, that >>>> represents a session-persistent, document isolated, unique identifier that >>>> a developer can reliably use to identify individual pens interacting with >>>> the page. >>>> >>>> >>>> Blink component >>>> Blink>Input >>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3EInput> >>>> >>>> TAG review >>>> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/880 >>>> >>>> TAG review status >>>> Pending. TAG review has been pending for 2 months. >>>> >>>> Risks >>>> >>>> >>>> Interoperability and Compatibility >>>> >>>> >>>> *Gecko*: No signal (https://github.com/mozilla/ >>>> standards-positions/issues/715) >>>> >>>> *WebKit*: No signal (https://github.com/WebKit/ >>>> standards-positions/issues/102) >>>> >>>> *Web developers*: No signals >>>> >>>> *Other signals*: >>>> >>>> WebView application risks >>>> >>>> *Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such >>>> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?* >>>> >>>> None >>>> >>>> >>>> Debuggability >>>> >>>> >>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, >>>> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)? >>>> No >>>> >>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>>> ? >>>> No. However, there are web tests in Chromium that test PointerEventInit >>>> with this feature. >>>> >>>> Flag name on chrome://flags >>>> PointerEventDeviceId >>>> >>>> Finch feature name >>>> >>>> >>>> Non-finch justification >>>> Edge origin trials successfully underway. >>>> >>>> Any Origin Trial feedback you can share? >>>> >>>> >>>> Absolutely, the feature has been working well. Our partners (Microsoft >>>> Whiteboard) have enabled the feature that is dependent on this API for >>>> their general audience! We did not receive any constructive feedback. This >>>> API is being used by them on Microsoft Surface Hub devices, which support >>>> multi-pen inking. >>>> >>>> >>>> Requires code in //chrome? >>>> False >>>> >>>> Measurement >>>> PointerEventDeviceId use counter implemented. >>>> >>>> Availability expectation >>>> Initially available on Chromium browsers on Windows. >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity, are there limitations on other platforms that prevent >>>> supporting this feature? >>>> >>>> >>>> We haven't been able to get our hands on hardware that supports other >>>> platforms in addition to multi pen inking in order to implement and >>>> appropriately test this feature. We welcome any sponsors for implementing >>>> and testing this, especially on Linux/Android. >>>> >>>> >>>> Adoption expectation >>>> Feature is used by specific partner(s) to provide functionality >>>> immediately upon launch. >>>> >>>> Adoption plan >>>> This feature has been through origin trials on Edge. It is being used >>>> by partners that provide features on devices with multi pen support. >>>> >>>> Non-OSS dependencies >>>> >>>> *Does the feature depend on any code or APIs outside the Chromium open >>>> source repository and its open-source dependencies to function?* >>>> Operating system API's are used to obtain the device id, and are >>>> necessary for this feature to function. Please see the security >>>> questionnaire in the TAG review on security and privacy concerns related to >>>> the use of these APIs. >>>> >>>> Estimated milestones >>>> Shipping on desktop >>>> 120 >>>> >>>> >>>> Anticipated spec changes >>>> >>>> *Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat or >>>> interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known github issues >>>> in the project for the feature specification) whose resolution may >>>> introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to naming or structure of >>>> the API in a non-backward-compatible way).* >>>> WICG Proposal: https://github.com/WICG/proposals/issues/101 No web >>>> compat/interop risk. >>>> >>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5114132234240000 >>>> >>>> Links to previous Intent discussions >>>> Intent to prototype: https://groups.google.com/a/ >>>> chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/SA0PR00MB1033E5DE0BDE42239E647 >>>> E9AFB189%40SA0PR00MB1033.namprd00.prod.outlook.com >>>> >>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status >>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an 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