On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 1:00 PM Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org> wrote:
> FWIW, in the PEWG call > <https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-pointerevents-minutes.html#t03> last week > there was some question of how this relates to the pen customizations > proposal <https://github.com/darktears/pen-customizations>. I suppose the > general question is whether this should be an additional part of some > hardware specific device customization in > pointerEvent.penCustomizationsDetails. I think there is a risk of > shipping this without consensus on the general shape, as it will make it > harder to change if it's decided there's a better way to expose the > information without breaking existing uses. We should probably take the API > that has been incubated and bring it back for discussion in the working > group. > I've raised this for discussion <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/353#issuecomment-1906641207> to try to reach consensus on the general idea. I also realize my comment comes across more critical than I meant it to be. There is risk to locking in the current proposal, but I also suspect we'd be able to make a breaking change if needed, so I did not intend my comment to be blocking. Apologies! On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 12:15 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev < > blink-dev@chromium.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, any more questions or concerns? >> >> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:44:58 PM UTC-8 Sahir Vellani wrote: >> >>> Just to clarify, I've made the change in the deviceId verbiage in the >>> spec, not pointerId :) >>> >>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:40:00 PM UTC-8 Sahir Vellani wrote: >>> >>>> I can't say what the reasoning is for that behavior in >>>> PointerEvent.pointerId, as I was not involved. However, I will make a >>>> change in the spec to only use the value of 1 for primary mouse device. >>>> There may be a scenario where PointerEvent.deviceId is unsupported by >>>> the UA (separate from an invalid id of -1); e.g, on platforms where the >>>> feature is unimplemented. In that case, developers might have a check like >>>> if(event.deviceId) {...}. If the deviceId is 0 for a valid reason, it will >>>> fail that check. I see no harm in limiting the deviceId from primary mouse >>>> to 1. It will avoid this interop issue and make the feature more friendly >>>> to web developers. >>>> >>> > 0 was originally reserved to mean a non-pointer device. This was discussed > in https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/343 where we discovered > that Firefox has, and continues to use 0 for mouse pointer events where > chrome and safari use 1. > > On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 6:26:20 PM UTC-8 mike...@chromium.org >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Forgive my ignorance around this API generally, but is there any >>>>> reason the spec can't require a single value? If not, why not? >>>>> On 1/18/24 3:05 PM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Appreciate the feedback! Yes the PR was reviewed by WG members for any >>>>> major concerns; but I believe there will be more comprehensive feedback >>>>> once the Level 3 spec lands. Regarding your concern, the language is based >>>>> on that of PointerEvent.pointerId. The ultimate goal here is to >>>>> differentiate between devices, and like pointerId, the way the ids are >>>>> assigned has been left to the UA. I think web developers should be able to >>>>> rely on PointerEvent.pointerType to confirm whether the pointer event >>>>> comes >>>>> from the primary mouse device. In Chromium, we transmit 1 for the mouse >>>>> for >>>>> PointerEvent.deviceId. >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 7:39:48 AM UTC-8 >>>>> yoav...@chromium.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 3:51:59 PM UTC+1 vmp...@google.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 6:08 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev < >>>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, good news! >>>>>> >>>>>> Reviving this thread because we have accomplished: >>>>>> 1. TAG Review Completion: Extending the PointerEvent with Unique >>>>>> DeviceId Attribute · Issue #880 · w3ctag/design-reviews (github.com) >>>>>> <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/880> Resolution: >>>>>> Satisfied >>>>>> 2. WICG Repository for standardization discussions. Link to explainer >>>>>> in WICG Repo: >>>>>> pointer-event-extensions/pointer-event-device-id-explainer.md >>>>>> at main · WICG/pointer-event-extensions (github.com) >>>>>> <https://github.com/WICG/pointer-event-extensions/blob/main/pointer-event-device-id-explainer.md> >>>>>> 3. A PR against the PointerEvent spec with proposed changes: Add >>>>>> deviceId to PointerEvent spec by sahirv · Pull Request #495 · >>>>>> w3c/pointerevents (github.com) >>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/495/files> We will be >>>>>> waiting for Spec Level 3 to come out before this can be merged; but this >>>>>> provides an official starting point for the standardized description of >>>>>> this feature. Based on the feedback received, I don't anticipate any >>>>>> major >>>>>> changes to the design. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the PR! Was it reviewed by other WG members? >>>>>> For example, "User agents MAY reserve a generic `deviceId` value of >>>>>> `0` or `1` for events generated by the primary mouse device." seems risky >>>>>> from an interop perspective. E.g. developers may rely on some UAs doing >>>>>> that and fail when others don't. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For posterity, I was initially unsure why this wasn't an issue on the >>>>>> w3c/pointerevents, but it does seem like the discussion happened there >>>>>> and >>>>>> folks agreed to move this in WICG: https://github.com/w3c/ >>>>>> pointerevents/issues/353 \o/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Reviewers, can we please get another review for shipping this feature? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:55:43 AM UTC-7 >>>>>> sligh...@chromium.org wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree that this needs a spec PR and the explainer should at least >>>>>> migrate to WICG before we agree to ship. Also, can you please link to the >>>>>> TAG review? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alex >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 4:16:41 AM UTC-7 Yoav Weiss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 12:42 AM Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> LGTM1 >>>>>> On 10/15/23 11:07 AM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the feedback, I wasn't aware they were mandatory. The >>>>>> steps have been started, just awaiting feedback from Security and Privacy >>>>>> reviewers. I've received LGTMs for all other areas. After our response to >>>>>> WebKit's question, they did not have any further follow-up questions. So >>>>>> I'm assuming all is well. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 4:59:15 AM UTC-7 Daniel Bratell >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I see that various mandatory steps in chromestatus >>>>>> (privacy,security,enterprise,debuggability,testing) seems to be >>>>>> unstarted. It is possible they were made mandatory after you create the >>>>>> entry, but it would be good if you could get them started now at least. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, it's unfortunate that TAG and standards positions requests have >>>>>> not resulted in anything, but that is hardly your fault. There were some >>>>>> questions in the WebKit request. Is all that ok now? >>>>>> >>>>>> /Daniel >>>>>> On 2023-10-06 20:10, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 9:03:35 AM UTC-7 mike...@chromium.org >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10/4/23 7:43 PM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Contact emails >>>>>> gerc...@microsoft.com, sahir....@microsoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Explainer >>>>>> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/ >>>>>> PointerEventDeviceId/explainer.md >>>>>> >>>>>> Specification >>>>>> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/ >>>>>> PointerEventDeviceId/explainer.md >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Is there a more formal spec for this? >>>>>> Any support outside of Microsoft that would enable y'all to move this >>>>>> to the WICG? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Summary >>>>>> >>>>>> As devices with advanced pen input capabilities are becoming >>>>>> increasingly prevalent, it is important that the web platform continues >>>>>> to >>>>>> evolve to fully support these advanced features in order to unlock rich >>>>>> experiences for both end users and developers. One such advancement is >>>>>> the >>>>>> ability for a device's digitizer to recognize more than one pen device >>>>>> interacting with it simultaneously. This feature is an extension to the >>>>>> PointerEvent interface to include a new attribute, deviceId, that >>>>>> represents a session-persistent, document isolated, unique identifier >>>>>> that >>>>>> a developer can reliably use to identify individual pens interacting with >>>>>> the page. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Blink component >>>>>> Blink>Input >>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3EInput> >>>>>> >>>>>> TAG review >>>>>> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/880 >>>>>> >>>>>> TAG review status >>>>>> Pending. TAG review has been pending for 2 months. >>>>>> >>>>>> Risks >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Gecko*: No signal (https://github.com/mozilla/ >>>>>> standards-positions/issues/715) >>>>>> >>>>>> *WebKit*: No signal (https://github.com/WebKit/ >>>>>> standards-positions/issues/102) >>>>>> >>>>>> *Web developers*: No signals >>>>>> >>>>>> *Other signals*: >>>>>> >>>>>> WebView application risks >>>>>> >>>>>> *Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such >>>>>> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based >>>>>> applications?* >>>>>> >>>>>> None >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Debuggability >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, >>>>>> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)? >>>>>> No >>>>>> >>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>>>>> ? >>>>>> No. However, there are web tests in Chromium that test >>>>>> PointerEventInit with this feature. >>>>>> >>>>>> Flag name on chrome://flags >>>>>> PointerEventDeviceId >>>>>> >>>>>> Finch feature name >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Non-finch justification >>>>>> Edge origin trials successfully underway. >>>>>> >>>>>> Any Origin Trial feedback you can share? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Absolutely, the feature has been working well. Our partners >>>>>> (Microsoft Whiteboard) have enabled the feature that is dependent on this >>>>>> API for their general audience! We did not receive any constructive >>>>>> feedback. This API is being used by them on Microsoft Surface Hub >>>>>> devices, >>>>>> which support multi-pen inking. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Requires code in //chrome? >>>>>> False >>>>>> >>>>>> Measurement >>>>>> PointerEventDeviceId use counter implemented. >>>>>> >>>>>> Availability expectation >>>>>> Initially available on Chromium browsers on Windows. >>>>>> >>>>>> Out of curiosity, are there limitations on other platforms that >>>>>> prevent supporting this feature? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We haven't been able to get our hands on hardware that supports other >>>>>> platforms in addition to multi pen inking in order to implement and >>>>>> appropriately test this feature. We welcome any sponsors for implementing >>>>>> and testing this, especially on Linux/Android. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Adoption expectation >>>>>> Feature is used by specific partner(s) to provide functionality >>>>>> immediately upon launch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Adoption plan >>>>>> This feature has been through origin trials on Edge. It is being used >>>>>> by partners that provide features on devices with multi pen support. >>>>>> >>>>>> Non-OSS dependencies >>>>>> >>>>>> *Does the feature depend on any code or APIs outside the Chromium >>>>>> open source repository and its open-source dependencies to function?* >>>>>> Operating system API's are used to obtain the device id, and are >>>>>> necessary for this feature to function. Please see the security >>>>>> questionnaire in the TAG review on security and privacy concerns related >>>>>> to >>>>>> the use of these APIs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Estimated milestones >>>>>> Shipping on desktop >>>>>> 120 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Anticipated spec changes >>>>>> >>>>>> *Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat >>>>>> or interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known github >>>>>> issues in the project for the feature specification) whose resolution may >>>>>> introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to naming or structure >>>>>> of >>>>>> the API in a non-backward-compatible way).* >>>>>> WICG Proposal: https://github.com/WICG/proposals/issues/101 No web >>>>>> compat/interop risk. >>>>>> >>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5114132234240000 >>>>>> >>>>>> Links to previous Intent discussions >>>>>> Intent to prototype: https://groups.google.com/a/ >>>>>> chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/SA0PR00MB1033E5DE0BDE42239E647 >>>>>> E9AFB189%40SA0PR00MB1033.namprd00.prod.outlook.com >>>>>> >>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status >>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group 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