Hi all, re-opening this thread. The feature has been re-implemented based on the PEWG feedback and guidance. Here is a quick summary of changes - - The PR against spec <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/495> has received lots of fruitful discussion and feedback, and is now in a stable state. We do not anticipate any further breaking changes to the uniqueId API. - PointerEvent.deviceId has been changed to PointerEvent.deviceProperties.uniqueId. There is no longer a reserved id for the mouse pointer. Invalid id is 0 instead of -1. The discussion and reasoning behind all changes can be found in the spec PR. - WPT tests have been implemented for this feature. - The feature has been verified by our partners via Origin Trial
Any oppositions to this being shipped in Chromium? On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 6:53:30 AM UTC-8 fla...@chromium.org wrote: > I think deviceProperties is reasonable. The other question was when > deviceId would be populated? E.g. should touches on the same touchscreen > device have the same deviceId or should we only have a deviceId when we can > uniquely identify the particular pointer? I suspect maybe the latter since > otherwise you couldn't infer uniqueness from its existence. > > Could you comment on the pointerevents issue > <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/353> so that the context is > there for the next meeting? I'll request that it be discussed again. > > On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 4:31 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev < > blin...@chromium.org> wrote: > >> Thanks for the update Robert! That makes sense. >> >> What about deviceProperties? That would place the emphasis on the device >> generating the pointer event; with "properties" being generic enough to >> include different supported functions of the device. So we would have >> something like >> PointerEvent.deviceProperties.deviceId/PointerEvent.deviceProperties.preferredInkingColor >> >> etc. >> >> Would you be able to clarify the next steps once the structure name has >> been agreed upon? I believe we'll need to update the explainer, spec PR and >> change the chromium implementation. Anything else? >> > > This sounds good. > > On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 12:33:46 PM UTC-8 fla...@chromium.org >> wrote: >> >>> We just discussed this yesterday where the consensus was that we thought >>> it would be pragmatic to put this new device specific identifier into a >>> common structure on the pointer event where other device specific >>> customizations could later be added (e.g. those from the pen >>> customizations proposal >>> <https://github.com/darktears/pen-customizations>). This avoids needing >>> to have new properties on the pointer event for each device specific >>> customization attribute added. >>> >>> Another question that came up was how universal this customization was, >>> i.e. whether there would be support for this on other platforms. >>> >>> @Sahir Vellani would you be able to suggest what you think the best >>> structure name / property name for pointer specific identifier properties >>> might be? >>> >>> I do agree with @Rick Byers that this is likely a niche API which we'll >>> likely be able to change, I'm just trying to get ahead of breaking changes >>> early. >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 11:33 AM Yoav Weiss (@Shopify) < >>> yoav...@chromium.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks for chiming in, Robert! >>>> >>>> Sahir - can you let us know once the PEWG has discussed this and you >>>> feel this is good to go? >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 at 8:26:32 PM UTC+1 >>>> sahir....@microsoft.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks Rick and Robert! >>>>> >>>>> Rick, I agree that it would be relatively easy to change/deprecate >>>>> deviceId. There are not too many devices at the moment that support >>>>> multiple pens, and not many web apps either. I think the cost to the >>>>> websites of not having Chrome support this for the foreseeable future is >>>>> greater than changing where the deviceId gets read from. The Pen >>>>> Customizations api looks quite cool, although deviceId is more generic. >>>>> >>>>> Robert, I'm happy to wait a week or two more for the PEWG to discuss >>>>> this further. Thanks for putting deviceId in the agenda, and of course we >>>>> can rework this if a more appropriate alternative is proposed. :) >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 at 11:01:05 AM UTC-8 fla...@chromium.org >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 1:00 PM Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> FWIW, in the PEWG call >>>>> <https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-pointerevents-minutes.html#t03> last >>>>> week there was some question of how this relates to the pen >>>>> customizations proposal >>>>> <https://github.com/darktears/pen-customizations>. I suppose the >>>>> general question is whether this should be an additional part of some >>>>> hardware specific device customization in >>>>> pointerEvent.penCustomizationsDetails. I think there is a risk of >>>>> shipping this without consensus on the general shape, as it will make it >>>>> harder to change if it's decided there's a better way to expose the >>>>> information without breaking existing uses. We should probably take the >>>>> API >>>>> that has been incubated and bring it back for discussion in the working >>>>> group. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've raised this for discussion >>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/353#issuecomment-1906641207> >>>>> to >>>>> try to reach consensus on the general idea. I also realize my comment >>>>> comes >>>>> across more critical than I meant it to be. There is risk to locking in >>>>> the >>>>> current proposal, but I also suspect we'd be able to make a breaking >>>>> change >>>>> if needed, so I did not intend my comment to be blocking. Apologies! >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 12:15 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev < >>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, any more questions or concerns? >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:44:58 PM UTC-8 Sahir Vellani wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Just to clarify, I've made the change in the deviceId verbiage in the >>>>> spec, not pointerId :) >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:40:00 PM UTC-8 Sahir Vellani wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I can't say what the reasoning is for that behavior in >>>>> PointerEvent.pointerId, as I was not involved. However, I will make a >>>>> change in the spec to only use the value of 1 for primary mouse device. >>>>> There may be a scenario where PointerEvent.deviceId is unsupported by >>>>> the UA (separate from an invalid id of -1); e.g, on platforms where the >>>>> feature is unimplemented. In that case, developers might have a check >>>>> like >>>>> if(event.deviceId) {...}. If the deviceId is 0 for a valid reason, it >>>>> will >>>>> fail that check. I see no harm in limiting the deviceId from primary >>>>> mouse >>>>> to 1. It will avoid this interop issue and make the feature more friendly >>>>> to web developers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 0 was originally reserved to mean a non-pointer device. This was >>>>> discussed in https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/343 where we >>>>> discovered that Firefox has, and continues to use 0 for mouse pointer >>>>> events where chrome and safari use 1. >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 6:26:20 PM UTC-8 mike...@chromium.org >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Forgive my ignorance around this API generally, but is there any >>>>> reason the spec can't require a single value? If not, why not? >>>>> On 1/18/24 3:05 PM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Appreciate the feedback! Yes the PR was reviewed by WG members for any >>>>> major concerns; but I believe there will be more comprehensive feedback >>>>> once the Level 3 spec lands. Regarding your concern, the language is >>>>> based >>>>> on that of PointerEvent.pointerId. The ultimate goal here is to >>>>> differentiate between devices, and like pointerId, the way the ids are >>>>> assigned has been left to the UA. I think web developers should be able >>>>> to >>>>> rely on PointerEvent.pointerType to confirm whether the pointer event >>>>> comes >>>>> from the primary mouse device. In Chromium, we transmit 1 for the mouse >>>>> for >>>>> PointerEvent.deviceId. >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 7:39:48 AM UTC-8 >>>>> yoav...@chromium.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 3:51:59 PM UTC+1 vmp...@google.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 6:08 PM 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev < >>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, good news! >>>>> >>>>> Reviving this thread because we have accomplished: >>>>> 1. TAG Review Completion: Extending the PointerEvent with Unique >>>>> DeviceId Attribute · Issue #880 · w3ctag/design-reviews (github.com) >>>>> <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/880> Resolution: >>>>> Satisfied >>>>> 2. WICG Repository for standardization discussions. Link to explainer >>>>> in WICG Repo: >>>>> pointer-event-extensions/pointer-event-device-id-explainer.md >>>>> at main · WICG/pointer-event-extensions (github.com) >>>>> <https://github.com/WICG/pointer-event-extensions/blob/main/pointer-event-device-id-explainer.md> >>>>> 3. A PR against the PointerEvent spec with proposed changes: Add >>>>> deviceId to PointerEvent spec by sahirv · Pull Request #495 · >>>>> w3c/pointerevents (github.com) >>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/495/files> We will be >>>>> waiting for Spec Level 3 to come out before this can be merged; but this >>>>> provides an official starting point for the standardized description of >>>>> this feature. Based on the feedback received, I don't anticipate any >>>>> major >>>>> changes to the design. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the PR! Was it reviewed by other WG members? >>>>> For example, "User agents MAY reserve a generic `deviceId` value of >>>>> `0` or `1` for events generated by the primary mouse device." seems risky >>>>> from an interop perspective. E.g. developers may rely on some UAs doing >>>>> that and fail when others don't. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For posterity, I was initially unsure why this wasn't an issue on the >>>>> w3c/pointerevents, but it does seem like the discussion happened there >>>>> and >>>>> folks agreed to move this in WICG: https://github.com/w3c/ >>>>> pointerevents/issues/353 \o/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reviewers, can we please get another review for shipping this feature? >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:55:43 AM UTC-7 >>>>> sligh...@chromium.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I agree that this needs a spec PR and the explainer should at least >>>>> migrate to WICG before we agree to ship. Also, can you please link to the >>>>> TAG review? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alex >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 4:16:41 AM UTC-7 Yoav Weiss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 12:42 AM Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> LGTM1 >>>>> On 10/15/23 11:07 AM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the feedback, I wasn't aware they were mandatory. The steps >>>>> have been started, just awaiting feedback from Security and Privacy >>>>> reviewers. I've received LGTMs for all other areas. After our response to >>>>> WebKit's question, they did not have any further follow-up questions. So >>>>> I'm assuming all is well. >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 4:59:15 AM UTC-7 Daniel Bratell >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I see that various mandatory steps in chromestatus >>>>> (privacy,security,enterprise,debuggability,testing) seems to be >>>>> unstarted. It is possible they were made mandatory after you create the >>>>> entry, but it would be good if you could get them started now at least. >>>>> >>>>> Also, it's unfortunate that TAG and standards positions requests have >>>>> not resulted in anything, but that is hardly your fault. There were some >>>>> questions in the WebKit request. Is all that ok now? >>>>> >>>>> /Daniel >>>>> On 2023-10-06 20:10, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 9:03:35 AM UTC-7 mike...@chromium.org >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 10/4/23 7:43 PM, 'Sahir Vellani' via blink-dev wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Contact emails >>>>> gerc...@microsoft.com, sahir....@microsoft.com >>>>> >>>>> Explainer >>>>> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/ >>>>> PointerEventDeviceId/explainer.md >>>>> >>>>> Specification >>>>> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/ >>>>> PointerEventDeviceId/explainer.md >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is there a more formal spec for this? >>>>> Any support outside of Microsoft that would enable y'all to move this >>>>> to the WICG? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Summary >>>>> >>>>> As devices with advanced pen input capabilities are becoming >>>>> increasingly prevalent, it is important that the web platform continues >>>>> to >>>>> evolve to fully support these advanced features in order to unlock rich >>>>> experiences for both end users and developers. One such advancement is >>>>> the >>>>> ability for a device's digitizer to recognize more than one pen device >>>>> interacting with it simultaneously. This feature is an extension to the >>>>> PointerEvent interface to include a new attribute, deviceId, that >>>>> represents a session-persistent, document isolated, unique identifier >>>>> that >>>>> a developer can reliably use to identify individual pens interacting with >>>>> the page. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Blink component >>>>> Blink>Input >>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3EInput> >>>>> >>>>> TAG review >>>>> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/880 >>>>> >>>>> TAG review status >>>>> Pending. TAG review has been pending for 2 months. >>>>> >>>>> Risks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Gecko*: No signal (https://github.com/mozilla/ >>>>> standards-positions/issues/715) >>>>> >>>>> *WebKit*: No signal (https://github.com/WebKit/ >>>>> standards-positions/issues/102) >>>>> >>>>> *Web developers*: No signals >>>>> >>>>> *Other signals*: >>>>> >>>>> WebView application risks >>>>> >>>>> *Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such >>>>> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?* >>>>> >>>>> None >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Debuggability >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, >>>>> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)? >>>>> No >>>>> >>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>>>> ? >>>>> No. However, there are web tests in Chromium that test >>>>> PointerEventInit with this feature. >>>>> >>>>> Flag name on chrome://flags >>>>> PointerEventDeviceId >>>>> >>>>> Finch feature name >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Non-finch justification >>>>> Edge origin trials successfully underway. >>>>> >>>>> Any Origin Trial feedback you can share? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Absolutely, the feature has been working well. Our partners (Microsoft >>>>> Whiteboard) have enabled the feature that is dependent on this API for >>>>> their general audience! We did not receive any constructive feedback. >>>>> This >>>>> API is being used by them on Microsoft Surface Hub devices, which support >>>>> multi-pen inking. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Requires code in //chrome? >>>>> False >>>>> >>>>> Measurement >>>>> PointerEventDeviceId use counter implemented. >>>>> >>>>> Availability expectation >>>>> Initially available on Chromium browsers on Windows. >>>>> >>>>> Out of curiosity, are there limitations on other platforms that >>>>> prevent supporting this feature? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We haven't been able to get our hands on hardware that supports other >>>>> platforms in addition to multi pen inking in order to implement and >>>>> appropriately test this feature. We welcome any sponsors for implementing >>>>> and testing this, especially on Linux/Android. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adoption expectation >>>>> Feature is used by specific partner(s) to provide functionality >>>>> immediately upon launch. >>>>> >>>>> Adoption plan >>>>> This feature has been through origin trials on Edge. It is being used >>>>> by partners that provide features on devices with multi pen support. >>>>> >>>>> Non-OSS dependencies >>>>> >>>>> *Does the feature depend on any code or APIs outside the Chromium open >>>>> source repository and its open-source dependencies to function?* >>>>> Operating system API's are used to obtain the device id, and are >>>>> necessary for this feature to function. Please see the security >>>>> questionnaire in the TAG review on security and privacy concerns related >>>>> to >>>>> the use of these APIs. >>>>> >>>>> Estimated milestones >>>>> Shipping on desktop >>>>> 120 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Anticipated spec changes >>>>> >>>>> *Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat >>>>> or interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known github >>>>> issues in the project for the feature specification) whose resolution may >>>>> introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to naming or structure >>>>> of >>>>> the API in a non-backward-compatible way).* >>>>> WICG Proposal: https://github.com/WICG/proposals/issues/101 No web >>>>> compat/interop risk. >>>>> >>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5114132234240000 >>>>> >>>>> Links to previous Intent discussions >>>>> Intent to prototype: https://groups.google.com/a/ >>>>> chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/SA0PR00MB1033E5DE0BDE42239E647 >>>>> E9AFB189%40SA0PR00MB1033.namprd00.prod.outlook.com >>>>> >>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status >>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving 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