--- Jon Gabriel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: <snip> > > I do believe that since our scientific capacities > and capabilities are > increasing each day (and with them, our knowledge of > the universe) that it > is perfectly possible and imo, likely that science > will one day identify > God. But I don't personally need such proof to > believe that God exists or > see his handiwork. I see God in everything from the > intricate details of an > insect's wing to the complexity of the human hand. > But I can't *prove* it. > I just *know*. That's my faith. And I honestly > don't care who disagrees with me. :)
Great big ditto, right down to the 'marvelous human hand - behold!' which, when I truly think of what 'lies behind' it, inspires such awe that I get goosebumps. "Mirabile dictu" indeed! Semantics/clarification: do you mean *know* in the sense that it's a bone-deep certainty which you _believe_, despite no "scientific proof?" That is my own sense of my faith/belief. So it's more of a sensation or feeling than "hard knowledge." A RL kind-of-analagous situation is loving another person, and *knowing* that they love you in return; that's really more a deep belief, since we truly cannot know exactly what the other is thinking/feeling, except by how they behave. We might be dead wrong - humans can be very good at deceiving others as well as themselves. But I nevertheless *know* that my parents and friends love me, just as they *know* how I love them. Doug wrote: >> I would say that the burden of proof is on those who claim that something exists despite a complete absence of credible evidence. >> Question for yourself and the rest of the believers on the list: If you believe in a god, why? What convinced you?<< >From my own POV (not claiming that my experience is applicable to anyone else), the first statement is a complete non sequitur#: the Divine does not require me to prove Ers existence -- and I have no desire or need to convert anyone to my personal belief, so I don't need to "prove it" to another person either. # This might not be the right Latin phrase here - I just mean that this is an issue not even 'on my radar screen.' From my Lutheran background comes "Faith alone," which I have expanded to encompass the entire Divine-mortal relationship; this is *not* what M Luther himself meant, as he was referring to how one is "justified" before God (by faith - in Jesus, in the divine sacrifice -- not by "good works." This was all in the context of his indignation over the selling of indulgences, and the corruption of what he thought ought to be the relationship between an individual man and God, etc.). So my own belief is based on my experiencing the Divine in "numinous moments." These aren't visions, or voices, or the sensation that Somebody Is Watching Me (the latter do occur, but then the somebody is another human who has set off my "Danger, Will Robinson!" sense). Mine are moments of profound connectedness to others or a place; they can be joyous or grievous; I may be alone or with others; I may have 'invited' the experience by meditating, or it may simply occur suddenly, without any effort on my part. So nothing "convinced" me or "proved that God Existed" to me; I just experience(d) -- profound connectedness. This is, I am sure, an unsatisfying response to one who does not experience such moments. I'm sorry that I can't parse it out for you better - I truly would if I knew how. But to those who say "how comforting it must be to believe that Somebody is looking out for you - like daddy or mommy" --oh, not at all. The Divine Presence has nothing to do with safety, or wealth, or certainty. It is a constant challenge to try to see the Divine in the world and each other, to live as if I can always sense the interconnection, when so often I just want to 'smack some sense into that fool head!' I have to commit *daily* to what I say I believe, WRT how to interact with others; my belief requires that I respond to 'my corner of the world' as if I and others are part of the Divine. And as I've written before, I scream (silently!) at the Divine on a regular basis, b/c so many things/situations in this world just STINK. I do not 'worship out of fear or a desire to please.' Like numinous moments, I sometimes consciously choose to 'address the Divine,' and sometimes it's just a spontaneous outpouring of delight, as unexpected as sudden laughter. I don't believe in a physical hell; I think hell is complete disconnection from the Divine (and thus from everything). I have no idea what 'heaven' might be, or what might happen to my consciousness/spirit/soul after I die -- and frankly _it_doesn't_ matter_. It's how I live *now* and whether some part of the world is a better place for my being in it that's important. My belief system doesn't make me superior to anyone, or more knowledgable; I don't have to belong to some exclusive "club" to gain self-worth. And whenever I do become presumptuously over-proud, sooner or later something happens that reminds me quite forcefully just how wrong or foolish I can be; I call this "karmic slappage." ;) But I don't think this is 'punishment from God;' I do have friends who believe that "everything happens for a reason," and somehow they seem to find comfort in believing that some terrible thing that happened in their life is a lesson, or trial to be overcome. If I thought that, I'd basically want to 'smack the Divine upside o' th' head' for such cruelty! >:-/ I don't have an explanation for why bad things occur, except that shit happens... Yet we live in a marvelous world, with such a variety of living things: snow algae! tube worms at volcanic vents in the bottom of the sea! terns that migrate practically Pole-to-Pole! wildebeasts in their herds-of-thousands! and us...the singing apes. All of us made out of stardust. Frickin' *amazing*... Debbi If I Claim To Be A Heretic Lutheran Deist, Will You Call Me A Witch? Maru ;) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
