As for pushing me for quote ... just to clear up where another misunderstanding was ... when you asked for evidence, I thought you meant for my overall opinions, like I needed to look up court cases, or something. When it dawned on me that maybe that isn't what you wanted, I return to what I said previously ... from my earliest posts, I've always quoted back the post I'm responding to ... but of course, the thurst of the disagreement is rooted in how this all got started.
You know, I totally forgot about that archive link ... never look at the footer. At least I didn't ask how to unsubscribe :-) It's late now. I'm tired. I've got two big days ahead of me where I'll be off list, mostly. I'm not going to do any research now ... and two days is a lot of time in the life of a list ... so unless you need me to provide complete exculpatory evidence, I bet this issue just fades away. We misunderstood each other and that's just part of list life. I respect you as a intelligent person and initially did not mean to insult you so much as try to draw say this or that sort of thing is this or that (purposely avoiding the specific words so as not to be misconstrued and reopen the debate). When I felt you misstated what I was saying, I got defensive, which is never wise. H. -----Original Message----- From: Beth Fleischer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 12:39 AM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: Church and State No Hare Kari allowed. There are archives - url at the bottom of every post! There was a long and involved discussion between Nick and I debating what made a school club - it IS sticky and I am confused about the state of schools in Lexington!!. If the school provides a teacher for the senior citizens square dance club to meet at the school, then the school should provide a teacher for the religious groups as well. But at the same time I dont' think there should be an East High Hindu Club. But at my mom's school, the senior square dancers dont' need a teacher to chaperone - there some other criteria for outside groups meeting. so I suspect this argument about whether having a teacher run the club makes it school sanctioned perhaps gave you the wrong idea- and thats ok. > What I did find was this quote from myself: "But in another post, you > (meaning Beth) just said, the students should not be allowed to use school > resources (which would include the floor they're standing on, as well as the > class time taken), for a religious gathering." What I meant by "resources" was that the school shouldn't pay a teacher to supervise them nor should this be considered part of the teachers job. The school shouldn't pay for paper for the meeting flyers. For example the art club at my high school used art supplies provided by the school. The sports teams used equipment and had paid coaches. I don't think that the schools funding should go towards religious groups of any kind. And after school if outside groups want to use the facilities thats fine with me - religious or not. It is not your misunderstanding of my opinions that bothers me - it was the personal attack instead of discussing what it was that I said that you disagreed with. I pushed you for quotes so I could see exactly what it was that offended you so we could discuss them- but instead of showing me what I said you chose instead to berate me personally, and discuss my character as opposed to what it is that I said that pissed you off. I addressed this in another post so thats all I will say about it for now. whether or not you find stuff in the archives to support what you think I think, or whether its what I think i think, I dont' really care for anyone feeling shamed - lets just all hold hands and sing cum bay yah, ok? ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 10:28 PM Subject: RE: Church and State > I wish this list had an archive ... does it? I looked on the House of > Fusion site and couldn't find one. > > If I'm wrong about what Beth has said, then I should do the Mailing List > equivalent of Hare Kari and quit the list -- admitting my shame, because I > have certainly shamed myself if I'm wrong. > > I have searched my own outbox and I could not find any direct words from > Beth contradicting the below. I found some stuff where if I string it > together, I come up with a picture that suggests a larger whole, but that > isn't really enough evidence, is it? > > What I did find was this quote from myself: "But in another post, you > (meaning Beth) just said, the students should not be allowed to use school > resources (which would include the floor they're standing on, as well as the > class time taken), for a religious gathering." > > I also find Beth's position contradictory on points. She has stated > sentiments like those below, but she has maintained, it seems to me, that > it's darn near impossible for a religious group not to meet on campus and > not be an established club. I wish I had more copies of the original Enron > thread (where this all started), because I remember her coming down on the > school in Kentucky that allowed a group of Christian athletes to meet, with > a teacher present. This is exactly the kind of meeting I maintain should be > allowed, and my impression of those first posts is that she was opposed to > it. Her words below would then contradict my memory, because by her words > below, the Christian athletes would be allowed to meet on campus. > > If I accurately paraphrased her in that post (above), from Jan. 28, then I > think she is advocating a complete ban on religious activity on school > grounds, regardless of time of day, etc. (Since I replied in a different > thread than what I was paraphrasing her from, I don't have her exact words > saved.) > > It's also important to note that the original hostility argument wasn't > between me and her. It started with two other parties, who have been happy > to sit on the sidelines while Beth and I slug it out. Beth came to their > defense. Their positions where more clearly aligned with my major complaint > (at least based on the evidence of my own outbox): denying rights to > religious groups. > > If I have misconstrued Beth's position, and the position below is accurate, > then we are in total agreement and this whole thing has been a silly > misunderstanding. I still feel my own points have been twisted or > misrepresented, but that is no excuse of misunderstanding Beth. > > > H. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth Fleischer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:51 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Church and State > > > > > > I advocate: Equal protection under the law; no discrimination based on > race, > > creed or sexual orientation. If you are a group, religious or not, who > want > > to use a public facility, school or not, with our without a > > teacher/supervisor, so long as you are not breaking or advocating the > > breaking of any law, then you have an absolute right to use that facility. > > > I haven't said anything that contradicts the above. I believe any group can > use a public facility. I do not think the public schools should hold > religious clubs associated with the school. > > ______________________________________________________________________ Macromedia ColdFusion 5 Training from the Source Step by Step ColdFusion http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201758474/houseoffusion Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
