I think I made it pretty clear I wanted you to show me where I said certain things you claimed I said. Still feel free to do so. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 12:28 AM Subject: RE: Church and State
> As for pushing me for quote ... just to clear up where another > misunderstanding was ... when you asked for evidence, I thought you meant > for my overall opinions, like I needed to look up court cases, or something. > When it dawned on me that maybe that isn't what you wanted, I return to what > I said previously ... from my earliest posts, I've always quoted back the > post I'm responding to ... but of course, the thurst of the disagreement is > rooted in how this all got started. > > You know, I totally forgot about that archive link ... never look at the > footer. At least I didn't ask how to unsubscribe :-) > > It's late now. I'm tired. I've got two big days ahead of me where I'll be > off list, mostly. I'm not going to do any research now ... and two days is a > lot of time in the life of a list ... so unless you need me to provide > complete exculpatory evidence, I bet this issue just fades away. We > misunderstood each other and that's just part of list life. I respect you as > a intelligent person and initially did not mean to insult you so much as try > to draw say this or that sort of thing is this or that (purposely avoiding > the specific words so as not to be misconstrued and reopen the debate). When > I felt you misstated what I was saying, I got defensive, which is never > wise. > > H. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth Fleischer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 12:39 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Church and State > > > No Hare Kari allowed. There are archives - url at the bottom of every > post! > > There was a long and involved discussion between Nick and I debating what > made a school club - it IS sticky and I am confused about the state of > schools in Lexington!!. If the school provides a teacher for the senior > citizens square dance club to meet at the school, then the school should > provide a teacher for the religious groups as well. But at the same time I > dont' think there should be an East High Hindu Club. But at my mom's > school, the senior square dancers dont' need a teacher to chaperone - there > some other criteria for outside groups meeting. so I suspect this argument > about whether having a teacher run the club makes it school sanctioned > perhaps gave you the wrong idea- and thats ok. > > > What I did find was this quote from myself: "But in another post, you > > (meaning Beth) just said, the students should not be allowed to use school > > resources (which would include the floor they're standing on, as well as > the > > class time taken), for a religious gathering." > > What I meant by "resources" was that the school shouldn't pay a teacher to > supervise them nor should this be considered part of the teachers job. The > school shouldn't pay for paper for the meeting flyers. For example the art > club at my high school used art supplies provided by the school. The sports > teams used equipment and had paid coaches. I don't think that the schools > funding should go towards religious groups of any kind. And after school > if outside groups want to use the facilities thats fine with me - religious > or not. > > It is not your misunderstanding of my opinions that bothers me - it was the > personal attack instead of discussing what it was that I said that you > disagreed with. I pushed you for quotes so I could see exactly what it was > that offended you so we could discuss them- but instead of showing me what I > said you chose instead to berate me personally, and discuss my character as > opposed to what it is that I said that pissed you off. I addressed this > in another post so thats all I will say about it for now. > > whether or not you find stuff in the archives to support what you think I > think, or whether its what I think i think, I dont' really care for anyone > feeling shamed - lets just all hold hands and sing cum bay yah, ok? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 10:28 PM > Subject: RE: Church and State > > > > I wish this list had an archive ... does it? I looked on the House of > > Fusion site and couldn't find one. > > > > If I'm wrong about what Beth has said, then I should do the Mailing List > > equivalent of Hare Kari and quit the list -- admitting my shame, because I > > have certainly shamed myself if I'm wrong. > > > > I have searched my own outbox and I could not find any direct words from > > Beth contradicting the below. I found some stuff where if I string it > > together, I come up with a picture that suggests a larger whole, but that > > isn't really enough evidence, is it? > > > > What I did find was this quote from myself: "But in another post, you > > (meaning Beth) just said, the students should not be allowed to use school > > resources (which would include the floor they're standing on, as well as > the > > class time taken), for a religious gathering." > > > > I also find Beth's position contradictory on points. She has stated > > sentiments like those below, but she has maintained, it seems to me, that > > it's darn near impossible for a religious group not to meet on campus and > > not be an established club. I wish I had more copies of the original Enron > > thread (where this all started), because I remember her coming down on the > > school in Kentucky that allowed a group of Christian athletes to meet, > with > > a teacher present. This is exactly the kind of meeting I maintain should > be > > allowed, and my impression of those first posts is that she was opposed to > > it. Her words below would then contradict my memory, because by her words > > below, the Christian athletes would be allowed to meet on campus. > > > > If I accurately paraphrased her in that post (above), from Jan. 28, then I > > think she is advocating a complete ban on religious activity on school > > grounds, regardless of time of day, etc. (Since I replied in a different > > thread than what I was paraphrasing her from, I don't have her exact words > > saved.) > > > > It's also important to note that the original hostility argument wasn't > > between me and her. It started with two other parties, who have been happy > > to sit on the sidelines while Beth and I slug it out. Beth came to their > > defense. Their positions where more clearly aligned with my major > complaint > > (at least based on the evidence of my own outbox): denying rights to > > religious groups. > > > > If I have misconstrued Beth's position, and the position below is > accurate, > > then we are in total agreement and this whole thing has been a silly > > misunderstanding. I still feel my own points have been twisted or > > misrepresented, but that is no excuse of misunderstanding Beth. > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Beth Fleischer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:51 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: Re: Church and State > > > > > > > > > > I advocate: Equal protection under the law; no discrimination based on > > race, > > > creed or sexual orientation. If you are a group, religious or not, who > > want > > > to use a public facility, school or not, with our without a > > > teacher/supervisor, so long as you are not breaking or advocating the > > > breaking of any law, then you have an absolute right to use that > facility. > > > > > > I haven't said anything that contradicts the above. I believe any group > can > > use a public facility. I do not think the public schools should hold > > religious clubs associated with the school. > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
