Oh noes! We need Danas! :-) Seriously, I think that the reason this Bush could have done so much good, and ended up doing so much evil, stems directly from the lack of challenge to power.
Bush kept asking for ponies, and congress just kept giving them to him. Challeng is exactly what we need. But I'm intrigued about the POWs and combatants... and the definitions... we're debating that in the courts now too, sorta like torture, right? Isn't it kind of scary when it's so easy to be defined as, say, a terrorist, and terrorists get treated "special"? -- "What potions have I drunk of Siren tears, Distill'd from limbecks foul as hell within, Applying fears to hopes, and hopes to fears, Still losing when I saw myself to win!" ---- Will - Sonnets On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 12:54 AM, Loathe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > combatant != prisoner of war > > You should move, seriously. We don't want you. We have enough loonies > that belong here. > > > > Dana wrote: > > i have been trying to stay out of this because really, I don't have > > time. However let me try one more time... > > > > > >> I spent two years working with former Soviet states on energy programs > and I > >> often used former Russian defectors as interpreters. > > > > And what did you learn from this? You're defending the right of the > > governement to just come take you away, my friend. Really, you are. > > Because if it is ok to do this to terrorists... you need to check out > > the definition of terrorist. > > > >> In some rosy past when we were nice little American boys and girls? > That's a > >> fairy tale. > > > > and yet it is still true according to you below. You aren't making sense. > > > >>> We had a stance like "you can torture us, but we will not torture > >>> you"-- we WILL NOT SINK TO THAT LEVEL. > >>> > >> We still do. The perpetrators of Abu Ghraib have been tried and convicted. > >> The CIA secret jails thing has been hashed out in public and in Congress. > >> The waterboarding thing has been all over the news forever. > > > > The perpetrators of Abu Ghraib :) ha. A few soldiers who followed > > orders were sacrificed like pawns. The secret jails, the > > extraordinary renditions, the black flights have *not* been hashed > > out. You've still never heard of Maher Arar and there is still a > > fifteen year old boy at Guantanamo being held without legal > > representation because of who his family knows. > > > >> I'm implying no such thing. I'm suggesting that at the highest > >>> levels, the "definition" of torture is being tested. > >>> > >> That is why we have an indepedent judiciary, to provide clarity on the > >> limits of Executive and Legislative power. > > > > Yes and the Executive says it does not want to be reviewed by the > > judiciary. DId you sleep through the whole FISA thing? > > > >> If you believe that then you obviously haven't studied Constitutional > >> history. People are people, they do good and bad. Our structure of > >> government is designed to contain the damage that can be done by any > single > >> branch of government, precisely because the Founders expected each branch > of > >> government to push the envelope. > > > > Yes but the Constitution you think protects us is being blatantly > disregarded. > > > >> I don't support it. I support specific measures that are finite in scope > and > >> duration to combat terrorism. As I noted in another thread, this business > of > >> using the Patriot Act to nail Spitzer for prostitution is no good, and the > >> rules need to be changed. > > > > But see, that's just it. SInce anyone can be a terrorist -- you really > > need to check out that definition --- all those measures apply to > > *everyone.* And a measure that is for the duration of the war on > > terror might as well be eternal. > > > >> They don't have uniforms, but they definitely are combatants. Why don't > you > >> ask one of the soldiers on the list if they think they guys shooting at > them > >> in Iraq and Afghanistan weren't combatants? > > > > But they aren't. You really haven't been paying attention, have you. > > They are not combattants and therefore the Geneva Convention is quaint > > and and they can be locked up as long as the administratoin pleases. > > If you don't believe me just ask Alberto Gonzales. > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/message.cfm/messageid:257184 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5
