i have been trying to stay out of this because really, I don't have time. However let me try one more time...
> I spent two years working with former Soviet states on energy programs and I > often used former Russian defectors as interpreters. And what did you learn from this? You're defending the right of the governement to just come take you away, my friend. Really, you are. Because if it is ok to do this to terrorists... you need to check out the definition of terrorist. > In some rosy past when we were nice little American boys and girls? That's a > fairy tale. and yet it is still true according to you below. You aren't making sense. > > We had a stance like "you can torture us, but we will not torture > > you"-- we WILL NOT SINK TO THAT LEVEL. > > > > We still do. The perpetrators of Abu Ghraib have been tried and convicted. > The CIA secret jails thing has been hashed out in public and in Congress. > The waterboarding thing has been all over the news forever. The perpetrators of Abu Ghraib :) ha. A few soldiers who followed orders were sacrificed like pawns. The secret jails, the extraordinary renditions, the black flights have *not* been hashed out. You've still never heard of Maher Arar and there is still a fifteen year old boy at Guantanamo being held without legal representation because of who his family knows. > I'm implying no such thing. I'm suggesting that at the highest > > levels, the "definition" of torture is being tested. > > > > That is why we have an indepedent judiciary, to provide clarity on the > limits of Executive and Legislative power. Yes and the Executive says it does not want to be reviewed by the judiciary. DId you sleep through the whole FISA thing? > If you believe that then you obviously haven't studied Constitutional > history. People are people, they do good and bad. Our structure of > government is designed to contain the damage that can be done by any single > branch of government, precisely because the Founders expected each branch of > government to push the envelope. Yes but the Constitution you think protects us is being blatantly disregarded. > I don't support it. I support specific measures that are finite in scope and > duration to combat terrorism. As I noted in another thread, this business of > using the Patriot Act to nail Spitzer for prostitution is no good, and the > rules need to be changed. But see, that's just it. SInce anyone can be a terrorist -- you really need to check out that definition --- all those measures apply to *everyone.* And a measure that is for the duration of the war on terror might as well be eternal. > They don't have uniforms, but they definitely are combatants. Why don't you > ask one of the soldiers on the list if they think they guys shooting at them > in Iraq and Afghanistan weren't combatants? But they aren't. You really haven't been paying attention, have you. They are not combattants and therefore the Geneva Convention is quaint and and they can be locked up as long as the administratoin pleases. If you don't believe me just ask Alberto Gonzales. -- Be nice to the US or we'll bring democracy to your country ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/message.cfm/messageid:257174 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
