You obviously do not know my wife.
And I strongly protest your implication that she is narrow-minded
and that, even if wrong, no amount of discussion would change her
mind.
Shame on you for pre-judging her and painting with a very broad brush.
I plan on showing her Will Bowen's very well-written reply.
Will's email immediately made me question the veracity of a lot
of the so-called "truths" I was taught. I want to study this more.
I'm Jewish, and there have been even more vicious attacks against
us for two thousand years. I do not want to spread false accusations
against Catholics if shown they are not true, and I am sure my
wife as an intelligent and fair person would do the same.
-Ben
>William -
>
>The arguments that Catholics think the Pope is God, that Mary is a God,
>that christian pageantry it idolitrous, etc. - these are all classic ad
>hominem attacks against Catholicism that have been going around for
>hundreds of years. This kind of hate speech ranks right up there with
>the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in terms of being complete BS, and
>have been used as the justification for attacks against Catholics in the
>U.S. since colonial days.
>
>The bottom line is, the church has it's enemies, and these arguments are
>the kind of trash they spread.
>
>While it is deeply offensive to hear otherwise intelligent people repeat
>such nonsense, the best thing you can do is let it go. My experience has
>been that once someone has become so narrow minded as to accept that
>this is the way things are, there is no amount of discussion that will
>convince them otherwise.
>
>M
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: William H Bowen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 4:58 PM
>To: CF-Community
>Subject: Re: Comments on Catholic Church
>
>
>Um... okay.
>
>Have been Catholic since shortly after I was born, and though I don't
>practice currently (I have my own issues with the Church) I think I'm
>well versed enough to be able to respond to many of the opinions (and
>they are) below.
>
>> Ben has asked me to respond to the question, "In what ways the
>> Catholic Church does not follow the ways of the Christian
>> faith."First, I need to say that all Christians and even Jews we all
>> need to be wary of "falling away" from our faith.
>
>Of course they do, but why is it that Catholics are predominantly
>singled out as those most in need of returning to the "true" faith?
>
>> Second, if you are interested in opinions about the apostasy ("falling
>
>> away") of the Catholic Church, one only has to look into the many
>> books and writings about the original Martin Luther and his 99
>> treatises that he nailed to the cathedral doors in the 1700's.
>
>Martin Luther never nailed anything to anything, least of all a church
><<http://www.luther.de/en/tanschl.html>>. His letter of October 31, 1517
>
>was written to address the sale of indulgence (the practice of donating
>money to the Church to automatically receive forgiveness for sins
>commited and future, the practice has since been abolished) and to
>address other misunderstandings, there were other writings included.
>Nice little bit of urban legend. A good one, but a legend none-the-less.
>
>> He and others, who were finally reading the Bibles that had been
>> distributed after the invention of the printing press, were
>> discovering that many things that were practiced and preached in the
>> Catholic Church were not according to scripture. Sadly though, even we
>
>> Protestants have "fallen away" from our faith.
>
>He was a monk, and a Catholic monk at that. It was very likely that he
>been reading the bible for some time. It's not like he was at the newly
>opened Book Shoppe, picked up a hot steaming copy of the Bible and
>shouted, "Ein minuten bitte! Ich habe keine problemo avec diese
>religione!" (Izzard, Dress to Kill, 1999)
>
>> Third, we all need to get back to the "Word", scriptures, Torah and
>> Tanakh (Torah, Psalms, and Prophets). We all need to have a time with
>> the Lord, praying, reading prayerfully, and even singing to/with the
>> Lord. This will bring us all closer to the divine life that is able to
>
>> get us through our daily living and even be the source of our life
>supply.
>
>The Hail Mary is prayed as a request for intercession on behalf of the
>pray-er to the pray-ee (Mary) for consideration and prayer "now and at
>the hour of our death."
>
>> Idol worship. See Exodus 20:3. Some say that Catholic statues and
>> icons were created to tell stories to an illiterate public.
>
>Yes, and?
>I really don't see the similarities between the graven images of Exodus
>that were being worshiped *as* gods and the Catholic practice of asking
>Saints, etc. to intercede on our behalf *to* or *with* God.
>
>> Those times are over and the idols should be taken down.
>
>I should just let go but/
>I can see you/
>your brown skin shinin' in the sun/...
>
>o_O
>
>sorry, just popped into my head just then...
>
>> Especially the Hollywood/Renaissance picture of Jesus should be
>destroyed.
>
>Yeah, Max von Sydow was obviously not a good choice to play Christ...too
>
>Northern Europe...
>
>> Check out Isaiah 52 and 53.
>
>From the old testament. Isaiah lived circa 740BC, he could maybe say
>"will be" but certainly not "was"
>
>Black Jesus anyone?
>
>I've got no problems with historically accurate portrayals of Christ,
>but these Bible things sell better when the diety looks more "like me,"
>ask any Baptist...
>
>> The Messiah was/will be not comely to look at. He was marred beyond
>> any other man.
>
>> Some say that these statues are not worshipped.
>
>That'd be me again. They're not.
>
>> Then why do people bow down to these idols and pray to them instead of
>
>> to the living God?
>
>Have you heard of the Catholic tradition/practice of intercession?
>Catholics pray to Saints, martyrs, Mary and Jesus, too, to go to God for
>
>them. To talk to go on our behalf. Was it co-opted from the Roman/pagan
>pantheistic tradition? you-betcha. Does it mean Catholics "worship"
>idols? Not in the least.
>
>> See the book of Judges and how many times the Lord tried to get people
>
>> to turn back to Him from lifeless idols. We all need to check with the
>
>> Lord as to what people, matters for things are modern idols in our
>> lives and turn to God from idols.
>
>Interesting take, and not uncommon to believe that Catholics, praying
>for intercession, are actually worshipping false idols (see above).
>
>> Making Mary, the mother of Jesus into a God.
>
>Again, Catholics do not "worship" Mary, as a God or otherwise. She is a
>VIP to the Catholic faith, not a deity. She is _again_ prayed to for
>help with God, kind of like trying to get in good with the CEO's
>assistant...
>
>> She would be the first one to protest this practice.
>
>Since she's _not_ worshipped as a God, there's nothing to protest.
>
>> Yes, she was a devout woman, knowing the scriptures well. See her
>> exaltation to God in Luke 1:46-55. She quotes verses from Psalms,
>> Samuel, Exodus, Hosea, and Daniel. She obeyed God to the uttermost
>> even to the possible loss of her respect and dignity in the society of
>
>> her time, but she was not a God.
>
>Again, nobody said she was.
>
>> Claiming that Mary was a virgin all her life. Read Matthew 1:25 and
>> through out the Gospels. Joseph did not "know" Mary until after Jesus
>> was born. Jesus had brothers and sister's. See also John 7:3. I can't
>> remember where the verse is where it talks about his mother and
>> brothers were looking for him, sorry.
>
>And I can't remember a time that I was told during my long years at
>Catholic grade schools that Mary was considered a virgin all of her
>life, simply that her conception of the Christ-child was divine and that
>
>at the time of his birth she did not "know" man.
>
>> The belief that you have to be a special person to be a "Saint". See 1
>
>> Corinthians 1:2. All believers in Christ are called saints. We are all
>
>> brothers and sisters. There should be no special designation of Saint,
>
>> Brother or Sister.
>
>Potato, potato, Tomato, tomato
>
>> There is a verse about not calling anyone "Father" except God the
>Father.
>
>My father lives in Kansas, he's not a god either. He's a good man
>though. Sometimes I call him dad. Of course you could be referring to
>the term "Father" as applied to priests. perhaps Captain would be more
>agreeable? Commodore? Poo-bah? It's a term of respect, not a term of
>worship.
>
>> There are verses about there being one mediator between God and Man
>> the man Jesus Christ. When we mess up, we should all make confession
>> directly to God through Jesus Christ.
>
>Oh and before we go down the road of, "but the Bible say we should pray
>to God directly or through Jesus," or whatever, the Bible *also* says we
>
>shouldn't commit adultery or murder or steal or blaspheme, either. So,
>when those little issues are cleared up, please place a call to the
>Vatican and I'm sure they'll be happy to drop the whole, priests can act
>
>as God's instrument on earth thing. Seems a minor issue to me.
>
>> (Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sins.
>> Hebrews 9 and Leviticus 17- but that is a whole other topic. If we
>> came to God directly we would be burnt to a crisp). There should not
>> be confessing to a priest.
>
>One of my problems with the Catholic Church is this confession thing.
>But not for the same reason. I confessed something to a priest that he
>reported to my parents. Broke the 'ol confidentiality clause. Serious
>issue that no one in the Church has ever been able to reconcile for me.
>But honestly, what is the big issue with intercession?
>
>> The whole clergy laity system is wrong. All should bring a Hymn, a
>> verse, a song. See 1 Cor. 14:26.
>
>?? Sorry, I don't understand the answer here. Are your referring to lay
>ministers and clergy? or just the clergy?
>
>> The Pope is not God.
>
>Holy Moly! Who said he was? He's the leader of the Church on earth. But
>God? Where did you get that notion?
>
>> Celibacy is only by a rare and special gift from God. It should not be
>
>> entered into except on rare occasions when one is gifted to be totally
>
>> dedicated to God. Without this gift sometimes negative things happen.
>> See the daily news.
>
>Sometimes single (but dating) and married people commit acts of heinous
>sexual atrocity, too. (Green River Killer anyone? Aileen Wournos?)
>Certainly not meaning to defend pedophile priests here, but c'mon,
>celebacy is not only the issue here.
>
>> The assertion that Peter was the leader of the church after Jesus
>> death and resurrection. See the Acts and Galatians. Peter shrank back
>> and was wishy washy on the faith. But he kept turning back to God. He
>> is a model of most of us. Paul and James were the leaders in the early
>
>> days of the church.
>>
>> A religion of guilt and focus on the death of Christ more than the
>> wonderful story of His resurrection (witnessed by over 120 people over
>
>> 40 days. See Acts).
>
>Please...Baptists and Lutherans and Jews don't have a healthy heap of
>guilt built in, too?
>
>
>Neither are Ash Wednesday, Maundy Thursday, Easter, Christmas and New
>Year's Day (though arguably New Year's isn't really a Catholic holiday),
>
>what's your point?
>
>> Christmas, Easter, and Halloween (All Saints Day the day after) were
>> invented to attract the local people of an area by putting the leaven
>> of the pagan religions and mixing it with the Christian faith. See
>> Matthew 13:13, also read up on the history of the different holidays.
>
>It seemed to work better to co-opt the local "pagan" beliefs and grow
>the Church, rather than simply move in and execute everybody. Better PR
>program.
>
>> Several Catholics that I know have told me that they were told not to
>> read the Bible and not to read the Bible to their children, but only
>> to read the Catechism.
>
>Never, in all my 34+ years of being Catholic have I _ever_ heard
>_anyone_ say this, except NON-Catholics. No priest, bishops,
>monsigneurs, cardinals, nay, not even the Pope (in his Pope-mobile)
>his-own-self. Funny thing about "other people's religions," YMMV.
>
>> All scripture is God breathed and profitable of teaching, for reproof,
>
>> for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God
>> may be complete. Fully equipped in ever good work. 2 Timothy 3:16. Man
>
>
>> would not follow the Catholic way, or forced conversions throughout
>> history.
>
>Good. Time enough for that later...
>
>> I hope that all Christians and Jews, including myself, will continue
>> to come back to the Word and treat it as a living document not dead
>> letters. We need to not only study it but also prayer with it. We all
>> need to "talk" to God about everything that is going on in our lives.
>
>"living" as in mutable? Able to be changed according to the times?
>
>> I am sorry that I am very busy right now and will probably not be able
>
>> to respond to rebuttals to this email, but I hope it gets us all to
>> think about being true to our faith and not falling away from it.
>
>It's sort of a pity that in order to be true to my "faith" I am
>considered by many to "falling away" from "truth."
>
>...sigh...
>
>--
>
>will
>
>"If my life weren't funny, it would just be true;
>and that would just be unacceptable."
>-- Carrie Fisher
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