Unfortunately if you don't confront this sort of hate speech it spreads and
like any other sort of virus it infects others. All together too often the
idea is that in some people's minds since it isn't challenged then it must
be true. This sort of justification has been used for even longer than you
mention, consider northern Ireland, Germany and England.
As an aside, I personally think that if people read Martin Luther's
writings, then to a great extent they would reject a lot of what he said.
For instance there is an extremely ugly anti-Semitic thread throughout his
writings that makes Mien Kampf look mild by comparison. But what struck me
was the obsession he had with feces and defecation. After reading his
writings on Satan for instance, with all of the fecal references, it makes
me wonder if he had some weird perversion involving feces.
larry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:10 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: Comments on Catholic Church
>
>
> William -
>
> The arguments that Catholics think the Pope is God, that Mary
> is a God, that christian pageantry it idolitrous, etc. -
> these are all classic ad hominem attacks against Catholicism
> that have been going around for hundreds of years. This kind
> of hate speech ranks right up there with the Protocols of the
> Elders of Zion in terms of being complete BS, and have been
> used as the justification for attacks against Catholics in
> the U.S. since colonial days.
>
> The bottom line is, the church has it's enemies, and these
> arguments are the kind of trash they spread.
>
> While it is deeply offensive to hear otherwise intelligent
> people repeat such nonsense, the best thing you can do is let
> it go. My experience has been that once someone has become so
> narrow minded as to accept that this is the way things are,
> there is no amount of discussion that will convince them otherwise.
>
> M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William H Bowen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 4:58 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: Comments on Catholic Church
>
>
> Um... okay.
>
> Have been Catholic since shortly after I was born, and though I don't
> practice currently (I have my own issues with the Church) I think I'm
> well versed enough to be able to respond to many of the opinions (and
> they are) below.
>
> > Ben has asked me to respond to the question, "In what ways the
> > Catholic Church does not follow the ways of the Christian
> > faith."First, I need to say that all Christians and even
> Jews we all
> > need to be wary of "falling away" from our faith.
>
> Of course they do, but why is it that Catholics are predominantly
> singled out as those most in need of returning to the "true" faith?
>
> > Second, if you are interested in opinions about the
> apostasy ("falling
>
> > away") of the Catholic Church, one only has to look into the many
> > books and writings about the original Martin Luther and his 99
> > treatises that he nailed to the cathedral doors in the 1700's.
>
> Martin Luther never nailed anything to anything, least of all
> a church
> <<http://www.luther.de/en/tanschl.html>>. His letter of
> October 31, 1517
>
> was written to address the sale of indulgence (the practice
> of donating
> money to the Church to automatically receive forgiveness for sins
> commited and future, the practice has since been abolished) and to
> address other misunderstandings, there were other writings included.
> Nice little bit of urban legend. A good one, but a legend
> none-the-less.
>
> > He and others, who were finally reading the Bibles that had been
> > distributed after the invention of the printing press, were
> > discovering that many things that were practiced and
> preached in the
> > Catholic Church were not according to scripture. Sadly
> though, even we
>
> > Protestants have "fallen away" from our faith.
>
> He was a monk, and a Catholic monk at that. It was very
> likely that he
> been reading the bible for some time. It's not like he was at
> the newly
> opened Book Shoppe, picked up a hot steaming copy of the Bible and
> shouted, "Ein minuten bitte! Ich habe keine problemo avec diese
> religione!" (Izzard, Dress to Kill, 1999)
>
> > Third, we all need to get back to the "Word", scriptures, Torah and
> > Tanakh (Torah, Psalms, and Prophets). We all need to have a
> time with
> > the Lord, praying, reading prayerfully, and even singing
> to/with the
> > Lord. This will bring us all closer to the divine life that
> is able to
>
> > get us through our daily living and even be the source of our life
> supply.
> >
> > Items of concern:
> >
> > The falling away from "Justification by faith". See Galatians, and
> > Romans 5.
> >
> > Faith in Christ Jesus is faith in His death and resurrection. He is
> > our grace to get things done. Keeping the law is not faith.
> No one is
> > good, not even one. If we could be "good" by trying harder, Christ
> > would not have had to come as our sacrifice. No amount of
> Hail Mary's
> > will make you better, only faith in the Lord's blood will wash you
> > clean. (That is a whole other email).
>
> The Hail Mary is prayed as a request for intercession on
> behalf of the
> pray-er to the pray-ee (Mary) for consideration and prayer
> "now and at
> the hour of our death."
>
> > Idol worship. See Exodus 20:3. Some say that Catholic statues and
> > icons were created to tell stories to an illiterate public.
>
> Yes, and?
> I really don't see the similarities between the graven images
> of Exodus
> that were being worshiped *as* gods and the Catholic practice
> of asking
> Saints, etc. to intercede on our behalf *to* or *with* God.
>
> > Those times are over and the idols should be taken down.
>
> I should just let go but/
> I can see you/
> your brown skin shinin' in the sun/...
>
> o_O
>
> sorry, just popped into my head just then...
>
> > Especially the Hollywood/Renaissance picture of Jesus should be
> destroyed.
>
> Yeah, Max von Sydow was obviously not a good choice to play
> Christ...too
>
> Northern Europe...
>
> > Check out Isaiah 52 and 53.
>
> From the old testament. Isaiah lived circa 740BC, he could maybe say
> "will be" but certainly not "was"
>
> Black Jesus anyone?
>
> I've got no problems with historically accurate portrayals of Christ,
> but these Bible things sell better when the diety looks more
> "like me,"
> ask any Baptist...
>
> > The Messiah was/will be not comely to look at. He was marred beyond
> > any other man.
>
> > Some say that these statues are not worshipped.
>
> That'd be me again. They're not.
>
> > Then why do people bow down to these idols and pray to them
> instead of
>
> > to the living God?
>
> Have you heard of the Catholic tradition/practice of intercession?
> Catholics pray to Saints, martyrs, Mary and Jesus, too, to go
> to God for
>
> them. To talk to go on our behalf. Was it co-opted from the
> Roman/pagan
> pantheistic tradition? you-betcha. Does it mean Catholics "worship"
> idols? Not in the least.
>
> > See the book of Judges and how many times the Lord tried to
> get people
>
> > to turn back to Him from lifeless idols. We all need to
> check with the
>
> > Lord as to what people, matters for things are modern idols in our
> > lives and turn to God from idols.
>
> Interesting take, and not uncommon to believe that Catholics, praying
> for intercession, are actually worshipping false idols (see above).
>
> > Making Mary, the mother of Jesus into a God.
>
> Again, Catholics do not "worship" Mary, as a God or
> otherwise. She is a
> VIP to the Catholic faith, not a deity. She is _again_ prayed to for
> help with God, kind of like trying to get in good with the CEO's
> assistant...
>
> > She would be the first one to protest this practice.
>
> Since she's _not_ worshipped as a God, there's nothing to protest.
>
> > Yes, she was a devout woman, knowing the scriptures well. See her
> > exaltation to God in Luke 1:46-55. She quotes verses from Psalms,
> > Samuel, Exodus, Hosea, and Daniel. She obeyed God to the uttermost
> > even to the possible loss of her respect and dignity in the
> society of
>
> > her time, but she was not a God.
>
> Again, nobody said she was.
>
> > Claiming that Mary was a virgin all her life. Read Matthew 1:25 and
> > through out the Gospels. Joseph did not "know" Mary until
> after Jesus
> > was born. Jesus had brothers and sister's. See also John
> 7:3. I can't
> > remember where the verse is where it talks about his mother and
> > brothers were looking for him, sorry.
>
> And I can't remember a time that I was told during my long years at
> Catholic grade schools that Mary was considered a virgin all of her
> life, simply that her conception of the Christ-child was
> divine and that
>
> at the time of his birth she did not "know" man.
>
> > The belief that you have to be a special person to be a
> "Saint". See 1
>
> > Corinthians 1:2. All believers in Christ are called saints.
> We are all
>
> > brothers and sisters. There should be no special
> designation of Saint,
>
> > Brother or Sister.
>
> Potato, potato, Tomato, tomato
>
> > There is a verse about not calling anyone "Father" except God the
> Father.
>
> My father lives in Kansas, he's not a god either. He's a good man
> though. Sometimes I call him dad. Of course you could be referring to
> the term "Father" as applied to priests. perhaps Captain
> would be more
> agreeable? Commodore? Poo-bah? It's a term of respect, not a term of
> worship.
>
> > There are verses about there being one mediator between God and Man
> > the man Jesus Christ. When we mess up, we should all make
> confession
> > directly to God through Jesus Christ.
>
> Oh and before we go down the road of, "but the Bible say we
> should pray
> to God directly or through Jesus," or whatever, the Bible
> *also* says we
>
> shouldn't commit adultery or murder or steal or blaspheme,
> either. So,
> when those little issues are cleared up, please place a call to the
> Vatican and I'm sure they'll be happy to drop the whole,
> priests can act
>
> as God's instrument on earth thing. Seems a minor issue to me.
>
> > (Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sins.
> > Hebrews 9 and Leviticus 17- but that is a whole other topic. If we
> > came to God directly we would be burnt to a crisp). There
> should not
> > be confessing to a priest.
>
> One of my problems with the Catholic Church is this confession thing.
> But not for the same reason. I confessed something to a
> priest that he
> reported to my parents. Broke the 'ol confidentiality clause. Serious
> issue that no one in the Church has ever been able to
> reconcile for me.
> But honestly, what is the big issue with intercession?
>
> > The whole clergy laity system is wrong. All should bring a Hymn, a
> > verse, a song. See 1 Cor. 14:26.
>
> ?? Sorry, I don't understand the answer here. Are your
> referring to lay
> ministers and clergy? or just the clergy?
>
> > The Pope is not God.
>
> Holy Moly! Who said he was? He's the leader of the Church on
> earth. But
> God? Where did you get that notion?
>
> > Celibacy is only by a rare and special gift from God. It
> should not be
>
> > entered into except on rare occasions when one is gifted to
> be totally
>
> > dedicated to God. Without this gift sometimes negative
> things happen.
> > See the daily news.
>
> Sometimes single (but dating) and married people commit acts
> of heinous
> sexual atrocity, too. (Green River Killer anyone? Aileen Wournos?)
> Certainly not meaning to defend pedophile priests here, but c'mon,
> celebacy is not only the issue here.
>
> > The assertion that Peter was the leader of the church after Jesus
> > death and resurrection. See the Acts and Galatians. Peter
> shrank back
> > and was wishy washy on the faith. But he kept turning back
> to God. He
> > is a model of most of us. Paul and James were the leaders
> in the early
>
> > days of the church.
> >
> > A religion of guilt and focus on the death of Christ more than the
> > wonderful story of His resurrection (witnessed by over 120
> people over
>
> > 40 days. See Acts).
>
> Please...Baptists and Lutherans and Jews don't have a healthy heap of
> guilt built in, too?
>
> > A Christian life should be a life of hope, renewing, and grace not
> > death and guilt. Christ is now the life-giving spirit. 1 Cor. 15:45.
> > The gilding and riches of the Catholic hierarchy and Protestant
> > hierarchy while it many members are starving and in a bad way. Many
> > theologians believe that Revelation 2:18-19 and Rev. 17 are
> about the
> > Roman Catholic Church and even the Protestant religions that have
> > followed in the same way over the years. This is a sober
> warning for
> > all of us.
> >
> > Miscellaneous items:
> >
> > "Lent" is not in the Bible
>
> Neither are Ash Wednesday, Maundy Thursday, Easter, Christmas and New
> Year's Day (though arguably New Year's isn't really a
> Catholic holiday),
>
> what's your point?
>
> > Christmas, Easter, and Halloween (All Saints Day the day after) were
> > invented to attract the local people of an area by putting
> the leaven
> > of the pagan religions and mixing it with the Christian faith. See
> > Matthew 13:13, also read up on the history of the different
> holidays.
>
> It seemed to work better to co-opt the local "pagan" beliefs and grow
> the Church, rather than simply move in and execute everybody.
> Better PR
> program.
>
> > Several Catholics that I know have told me that they were
> told not to
> > read the Bible and not to read the Bible to their children,
> but only
> > to read the Catechism.
>
> Never, in all my 34+ years of being Catholic have I _ever_ heard
> _anyone_ say this, except NON-Catholics. No priest, bishops,
> monsigneurs, cardinals, nay, not even the Pope (in his Pope-mobile)
> his-own-self. Funny thing about "other people's religions," YMMV.
>
> > All scripture is God breathed and profitable of teaching,
> for reproof,
>
> > for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the
> man of God
> > may be complete. Fully equipped in ever good work. 2
> Timothy 3:16. Man
>
> > shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out
> > from the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4. Your words were found and I did
> > eat them and they became the joy and rejoicing of my heart.
> Jeremiah
> > 15:16. The prophet Ezra read the Word to the children of
> Israel when
> > they returned from Babylon and they were strengthened to
> rebuild the
> > Temple.
> >
> > We will not even go into the persecutions of the Jews &
> Christians who
>
> > would not follow the Catholic way, or forced conversions throughout
> > history.
>
> Good. Time enough for that later...
>
> > I hope that all Christians and Jews, including myself, will continue
> > to come back to the Word and treat it as a living document not dead
> > letters. We need to not only study it but also prayer with
> it. We all
> > need to "talk" to God about everything that is going on in
> our lives.
>
> "living" as in mutable? Able to be changed according to the times?
>
> > I am sorry that I am very busy right now and will probably
> not be able
>
> > to respond to rebuttals to this email, but I hope it gets us all to
> > think about being true to our faith and not falling away from it.
>
> It's sort of a pity that in order to be true to my "faith" I am
> considered by many to "falling away" from "truth."
>
> ...sigh...
>
> --
>
> will
>
> "If my life weren't funny, it would just be true;
> and that would just be unacceptable."
> -- Carrie Fisher
>
>
>
>
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