On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:07 AM, Adam Haskell wrote: > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:00 PM, denstar wrote: > >> >> Well, I guess my question to you would be, what is a "java app" to you? >> >> How does JSP, Tapestry, Faces, Groovy, etc. fit into your picture there? >> > > JSP and Faces are both part of the Java spec so its java (JSF 2.0 I > suppose). Tapestry is a framework and does not really do code generation as > compared to something like CFML. You'll note that I suggested selling CFML > as a Java framework earlier. Groovy is a completely different story and much > closer to CFML except that it needs no runtime nor the servlet container to > work. It really does compile down to bytecode and run. CFML on the other > hand compiles down to bytecode but can not exist or function on its own. All > CFML code requires a CFML runtime engine to actually provide functionality > (unless Railo is doing something different I have not looked at 3.x > extensively I figure I'll just wate for the source).
Groovy, or even pure Java, don't equal JEE, as such. See, I think JEE doesn't really mean much. More marketing speak than anything. Seam is a JEE 5 framework, and it fits the "spec test", along the lines of Tapestry, but from a support/coding perspective, there is a difference between Seam and Tapestry. >> I bet there are JSP, etc., "powered" apps that tout themselves as >> being "JEE", neh? Although it's all sorta the same, there's a world >> of difference, from a "can I jump into this thing's source?" >> perspective. >> > > Well they are JEE apps if they are JSP, it is part of the spec. I don't think saying something is JEE "compatible" or whatever really says much, to a Source-erer. Struts and JSF, for example. Both could fit your definition of a JEE app, which still leaves you not knowing some vital information, from a coding perspective. What about using Spring and Hibernate, which might be seen as violating the ee specs? .... >> I get your point though, and I would not be touting my CF-based JEE >> app as having "pure" Java sources. I don't think that's exactly what >> we were talking about tho, neh? :-) >> > > Sort of it. The original comment was give them a war and say it is a JEE > app, to which I think there are implications there to most people. The > implication (right or wrong) being JEE == Java [source]. I wouldn't infer very much, personally, from someone saying their app met the JEE specs, other than the idea that maybe I could get the thing to run in a JEE container of some sort. There are EE apps that don't exactly run in "any" JEE compliant container, neh? :-) And still, if you're coming from a "use the source" perspective, there are worlds and worlds of "java source" that, while all 100% pure java, would still require an investment in time to be modify. Sometimes significant amounts of time. Think of a CF dev with no experience with X framework. Sure, it's all "pure" CF, but, from a practical perspective, it's quite different. You couldn't toss a CFer with no experience at a framework driven app and expect them to instantly be able to grasp what's going on. Am I being misleading by touting my application as a "ColdFusion application", in those instances? I think you'd say no, but you'd probably want to know, if you're buying the source to extend and maintain yourself, right? JEE is a spec, it's not actually saying much about source code, per se. More like requirements to be met, or some such, right? If you were at all concerned with being able to extend or customize some EE app yourself, you would want to know more than "is it JEE?", which we've covered. > If a company finds they are given CFML and not the > "standard" JEE app (which is rapidly degrading away as a standard) would > they come back? Heh, you nailed it right there. What does JEE *really* mean? I posit that unless they're paying for the source itself, it's a moot point. If they're paying for a solution, period, and you provide that solution, then it's gravy, as far as I can tell. And that seems to be the way it works, more than the way you posit, where they are concerned about the underlying technology driving the solution. Most people just want something that will do what they need it to do, and that's what they pay you for. All that said, I'm a source monger myself, and pay attention to that "long tail", so I always investigate *wince* solutions *wince* before we buy them (when I know we're buying them). Not that it seems to make much of a difference, as most people just care about the short term (if that, even), apparently. Freaking pointy heads. :-) -- Hearing the word is the devout receiving of the will of God. William Ames ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313355 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
