On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 14:30:56 -0700 "'robert therriault' via Chat" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Welcome back Joseph ;) > > If you want a low impact way to keep up with many of the array > languages, the J/APL/BQN/K/Q/functional/combinatory comparison is > something that occurs frequently on the Array Cast podcast that Adam > Brudzewsky, Stephen Taylor, Conor Hoekstra and Richard Park and I > produce. https://www.arraycast.com/episodes > > Cheers and enjoy the journey, bob > > > On Oct 6, 2021, at 14:20, joseph turco <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > So I played around more with APL and I actually am not a big fan of > > how variables and functions are managed. I prefer the way J does > > things with the built-in editor. I guess its J for me! > > > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 3:04 PM joseph turco > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Thanks for the explanation robert, i see your an inhabitant of > >> Ward's. i wave from my apartment here on the mainland. I do agree > >> i that the conventions that J uses are more palatable than what > >> the standard nomenclatures are for terms. After i learn APL, ill > >> revisit J and see which one i enjoy more, for now i think it's APL. > >> > >> regards, > >> > >> Joseph Turco > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 2:25 PM Robert Bernecky > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> BTW, over recent years, Dyalog APL has adopted some of the > >>> concepts of SHARP APL and J, including forms of function > >>> composition, function rank, etc. Roger Hui likely provided much > >>> of the impetus for that work at Dyalog. > >>> > >>> They have not yet adopted the SHARP APL/J terminology, e.g., > >>> verbs, adverbs, nouns, and conjunctions. In my experience, > >>> using Ken's terms greatly eases the languages and their concepts, > >>> because learners, particularly those in the arts, are comfortable > >>> with them, whereas terms such as higher-order function, operator, > >>> currying, etc., scare these people away, because Programming Must > >>> Be Really Hard. I can teach people array verbs and reduction in a > >>> minute or two, > >>> including a pop quiz at the end. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> On 2021-10-06 2:06 p.m., joseph turco wrote: > >>>> Hey all, thanks for the responses. > >>>> > >>>> After using J for a bit, i think i prefer using APL, i like the > >>>> representation of the symbols more than the ASCII characters. > >>>> I will keep J in mind after learning APL. Sorry if i wasted > >>>> anyones > >>> time. > >>>> > >>>> regards, > >>>> > >>>> Joseph Turco > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:15 PM Devon McCormick > >>>> <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers > >>>>> more. If you want to develop a user-facing application, APL > >>>>> may be a better choice. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark > >>>>> <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > >>>>> entertaining. > >>>>>> Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it > >>>>>> will continue to gain in status (and rarity). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller > >>>>>> <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > >>>>> entertaining. > >>>>>>> Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an > >>>>>>> impractical sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a > >>>>>>> variety of computer games now which include "coal mining" as > >>>>>>> an activity that the players can engage in (minecraft comes > >>>>>>> to mind here, but there's plenty of others -- often with > >>>>>>> better graphics)). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Food for thought? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Raul > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark > >>>>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> joseph turco writes: > >>>>>>>>> I would like to learn an array language purely as an > >>>>>>>>> academic > >>>>>> exercise > >>>>>>>> (you can say, 'for fun') > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It > >>>>>>>> follows that rational argument is irrelevant. > >>>>>>>> Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most > >>>>>>>> fun. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Which to try first? Look at > >>>>>>> https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook > >>>>>>>> to get a quick comparison of both. > >>>>>>>> Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of > >>>>>>>> J than vice-versa. That tells you something. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the > >>>>>>>> other > >>> doesn't. > >>>>>> One > >>>>>>>> makes money, the other doesn't. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It > >>>>>>>> was an extremely good living: far better than coding in > >>>>>>>> C/C++ or Visual > >>>>> Basic. > >>>>>>> The > >>>>>>>> choice of employer was more limited, but they were > >>>>>>>> invariably more > >>>>> fun. > >>>>>>>> That tells you something too. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The singer, not the song? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man > >>>>>>>> from a coal > >>>>>>> mining > >>>>>>>> town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, > >>>>>>>> and never > >>>>>> will. > >>>>>>>> But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now > >>>>>>>> absorbs most > >>>>> of > >>>>>> my > >>>>>>>> discretionary time. That tells you something else. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's > >>>>>>>> a hint… Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they > >>>>>>>> don't have to. But > >>>>>>> coding > >>>>>>>> a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with > >>>>>>>> someone > >>>>> who > >>>>>>>> starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, > >>>>>>>> that > >>>>>> wasn't > >>>>>>>> Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as > >>>>>>>> irritated as I > >>>>>> was. > >>>>>>>> But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who > >>>>>>>> *know*…! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So… APL or J? Things to consider: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin > >>>>>>>> and the > >>>>>> viola, > >>>>>>>> no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you > >>>>>>>> prefer, or > >>>>> the > >>>>>>> most > >>>>>>>> fun – you'll end up playing the viola. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because > >>>>>>>> it is > >>>>>>> elegant, > >>>>>>>> appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It > >>>>>>>> succeeds > >>>>>> because > >>>>>>>> of its trade connections. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish > >>>>>>>> saying: a "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? > >>>>>>>> (a) because it's fun? > >>>>>>>> (b) because it isn't? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy > >>>>>>>> employer did. > >>>>>> When I > >>>>>>>> left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of > >>>>>>>> those > >>>>> arcane > >>>>>>>> languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered > >>>>>>>> well-paid > >>>>>> jobs. > >>>>>>>> Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But > >>>>>>>> I'm being > >>>>> too > >>>>>>>> harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, > >>>>>>>> VB, > >>>>>>> javascript, > >>>>>>>> Python…) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> When the fun stops: stop. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco < > >>> [email protected] > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand > >>>>>>>>> that is > >>>>>> not > >>>>>>> my > >>>>>>>>> intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am > >>>>>>>>> an > >>>>>>> inexperienced > >>>>>>>>> programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an > >>>>>>>>> array > >>>>>>> language > >>>>>>>>> purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I > >>>>>>>>> know > >>>>> this > >>>>>>> is a > >>>>>>>>> J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there > >>>>>>>>> any > >>>>> reason > >>>>>> I > >>>>>>>>> should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J > >>>>>>>>> using > >>>>>> ASCII > >>>>>>>>> characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i > >>>>>>>>> got that > >>>>>>> wrong or > >>>>>>>>> if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on > >>>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>> focusing on > >>>>>>>>> J and instead on APL? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> For information about J forums see > >>>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> For information about J forums see > >>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>>>>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> For information about J forums see > >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> For information about J forums see > >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> Devon McCormick, CFA > >>>>> > >>>>> Quantitative Consultant > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> For information about J forums see > >>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> For information about J forums see > >>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Robert Bernecky > >>> Snake Island Research Inc > >>> 18 Fifth Street > >>> Ward's Island > >>> Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9 > >>> > >>> [email protected] > >>> tel: +1 416 203 0854 > >>> text/cell: +1 416 996 4286 > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> For information about J forums see > >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see > > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm Hey robert, i have heard of the podcast, and i really have to get around check it out. Thanks for welcoming me back! regards, Joseph Turco ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
