On 29 Sep 2004, at 00:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
the Lenya people went thru hell and back with the incubator, also accepting policies that were continously changing, demonstrating lots of patience and will to collaborate, they hang on, even when it was frustrating and *I* was pissed at the incubator PMC for not saying the same thing the same week.
They had big customers, they risked their assets in the event of a 'death sentence' (a real one) and they made several big mistakes that forced the mentors to get in and say "look, one other thing like this and you are out".
They learned, they stimulated a community, which is now diverse, friendly and healthy from all possible senses and even ego attachments to some of the architectural issues were diluted in the process and there is no more sign of that.
Result, a long time after that, they graduated. They *earned it*. The hard way, now they are trusted peers.
To put things in perspective: I was one of the folks giving them hard times at regular occasions. I also became a de-facto Mentor during their Incubation process. I'm a member of their TLP PMC now - upon their own request. And in terms of bias, my company happens to be releasing a somehow competing open source CMS framework in the next few weeks. So what we have now is a bunch of people who are willing to collaborate, even if personal or business interests differ, for the good of the community. Yes, we had times where people grew increasingly weary over all the "fuzz" ASF was requiring from them. But we choose to leave these times behind and look into the future instead. Lenya will probably have outlived the longest incubation process ever, and I think everyone learned from it.
Looking at your replies, I still have difficulties to understand your real intentions and real feelings towards the ASF processes and participants. I see a great care about your technology, of which I'm a happy user, which however somehow is dwarfed by your nits about ASF community practices and people - yet you seem to be very eager to provide Metro with the ASF brand.
However, please don't forget that the foundation is growing at ever accelerating rates, with 1K of committers so far, close to 200 separate source repositories, close to 30 TLPs - yet you encounter the same policy-suggesting people everywhere. That means patience of people can grow thin quickly if they need to "make exceptions" for new projects with new policies - which unfortunately is the result of our current size. It is not in the interest of the foundation to "provide" said brand to a project which doesn't like to fit in somehow, which doesn't respect what we have achieved so far, and which doesn't respect its (inter-)project peers and senior participants of Apache, and feels cornered at the same time, _even_ if that project has a compelling technical vision.
I'm not saying you or other Metro folks have intentions to follow or stay on a collision course any longer, I'm just trying to point you out what the logical consequences are when someone wants to join a group. One should give and take with consideration and balance.
</Steven> -- Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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