I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape as a major threat to getting some momentum rolling.
That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that allows us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of the ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and think this diversity is what helps us move forward. So, let's move forward. John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on these proposals? On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <[email protected]> wrote: > That's fair. We can definitely do this: > > One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity >> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send out a >> summary after the meeting. > > > As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for this > kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a more > positive name. > > As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be set well > in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of days. And > so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm > personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and I agree > that it's beneficial. > > I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the > requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet, so having > someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great. > > > Thanks, > > David > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid co-location of >> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using tools like >> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community to build >> some level of governance around how communication from the real time >> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists). One way >> to >> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information for the >> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the >> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick times >> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual UTC >> time is not reasonable for all. >> >> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF >> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how you're >> planning to operate. >> >> John >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > John, >> > >> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the communication >> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the list of >> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week). >> > >> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though modified, >> even >> > after reading this section of the linked-to document: >> > >> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual meeting >> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a general >> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed to cover >> > all >> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache >> > communities). >> > > >> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for >> example, >> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely rare, >> > normally >> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to >> understand >> > > than written text). >> > > >> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important because >> it >> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the volunteer >> > > nature of the various communities. >> > >> > >> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the language >> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of people >> that >> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And the >> cost of >> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost to our >> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually reduce that >> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an hour of >> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to start >> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die. >> > >> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also implore >> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this project -- >> we >> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on track. >> And >> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo. >> > >> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the >> temporary >> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory anyways. >> But >> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able to >> > organize and attend. >> > >> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous messaging >> and >> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster than >> > email mailing lists in my opinion. >> > >> > How does that sound, John? >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Hey guys >> > > >> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how >> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review - >> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html >> > > >> > > John >> > > >> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <[email protected]> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and >> https://www.join.me/ >> > > for >> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the caster). >> > > > >> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for group >> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free >> > > > platform). >> > > > >> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective >> > > > meetings. >> > > > >> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US). >> > > > >> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Hello developers! >> > > > > >> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > METHODOLOGY >> > > > > >> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a >> > loose >> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those >> > > sprints >> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS >> > > > > >> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on >> Saturday >> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs, >> > > > availability, >> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday. >> > > > > >> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a >> > > Saturday >> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be >> > > around >> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning >> > > > meetings. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS >> > > > > >> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio >> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary >> times, >> > > and >> > > > I >> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate. >> > > > > >> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing / >> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary >> > times, >> > > > and >> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate. >> > > > > >> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system >> > beyond >> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this >> audience >> > to >> > > > > propose candidates. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES >> > > > > >> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these >> > > proposals >> > > > in >> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is >> 8:00 >> > > PM >> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April >> 21, >> > > > 2016). >> > > > > >> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, >> if >> > we >> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and >> > > decided >> > > > no >> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be >> most >> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day >> for >> > > the >> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings. >> > > > > >> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00 >> AM >> > > GMT >> > > > > Friday, April 22. >> > > > > >> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email >> > > > starting >> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later >> > than >> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Thank you for your time! >> > > > > >> > > > > David Ash >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >
