Hi, Sorry not to be able to reply responsively...(vacations)
Comments inline... Le vendredi 22 avril 2016, David Ash <[email protected]> a écrit : > Awesome! Thanks for your contribution Inge! > > It's unfortunate that we didn't hear from everyone, but we have to keep > moving forward aggressively. It's time for voting! > > CANDIDATES > Voice > * Skype > * Discord Please, no voice communication, no schefuled meetings. This will simply won't work across timezones. Sunday is generally a sacred familly day: ie we are all deficated and hard worker developpers, who probably had cut a deal with spouse/husband : sunday is a ´no computer day' ! > > Screen sharing > * Skype > * join.me Same pb, but can be useful from tome to time. > > Team chat > * HipChat > * Discord > * Skype > * Slack Same as voice channel : does not work well across tz. Such real time communication channel are somehow excluding people from the team in the long run... > > > MY VOTE > 1. Voice - Skype > 2. Screen sharing - Skype > 3. Team chat - Slack > > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ 4:00 PM UTC Typically, this is 6:30 pm in France. 12h30 in NY, 9:30 in SF, midnight in New Delhi(not to mention Australia). We tried such meetings on another project, with people from South Korea, Turkey, France and USA: a failure. As ´retarded' as it sounds, mailing list simply works: asynchronous, archived, possible parallel threads: all what you need;-) Emmanuel > > > VOTES SO FAR > Sam > 1. Voice - Skype > 2. Screen sharing - join.me > 3. Team chat - Slack > > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ ? > > Inge > 1. Voice - Skype > 2. Screen sharing - Skype > 3. Team chat - Slack > > Temporary regular meetings: ? > Kickoff meeting: ? > > > VOTING > > Please cast or update your vote for solutions no later than Saturday, April > 23rd @ 6AM UTC. > Please cast or update your vote for kickoff day and time no later than > Saturday, April 23rd @ 12AM UTC. > > > > Thanks for your involvement! > > David Ash > > > > > On Apr 21, 2016 3:45 PM, "Inge Olaisen" <[email protected] > <javascript:;>> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me. The > details > > of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have the > kickoff > > meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup. > > > > Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice > > communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in the US. > > Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing option > > available. > > Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in so many > > regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for me. I do > > favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long as you can > > chat it is good. > > > > // Inge > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <[email protected] > <javascript:;>> wrote: > > > > > Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when you > listed > > > those team chat options? > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <[email protected] > <javascript:;>> > > wrote: > > > > > > > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate > > > > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape as a > > > major > > > > threat to getting some momentum rolling. > > > > > > > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that > > allows > > > > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of > the > > > > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and think > > > this > > > > diversity is what helps us move forward. > > > > > > > > So, let's move forward. > > > > > > > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on these > > > > proposals? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <[email protected] > <javascript:;>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this: > > > >> > > > >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity > > > >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send out > a > > > >>> summary after the meeting. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for > this > > > >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a > more > > > >> positive name. > > > >> > > > >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be set > > > well > > > >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of days. > > > And > > > >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm > > > >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and I > > > agree > > > >> that it's beneficial. > > > >> > > > >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the > > > >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet, so > > > having > > > >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> > > > >> David > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament < > > [email protected] <javascript:;>> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid > > co-location > > > of > > > >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using > tools > > > >>> like > > > >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community > to > > > >>> build > > > >>> some level of governance around how communication from the real > time > > > >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists). > One > > > way > > > >>> to > > > >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information > > for > > > >>> the > > > >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the > > > >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick > > times > > > >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual > > UTC > > > >>> time is not reasonable for all. > > > >>> > > > >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF > > > >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how > > > you're > > > >>> planning to operate. > > > >>> > > > >>> John > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <[email protected] > <javascript:;>> > > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > John, > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the > > > >>> communication > > > >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the > list > > of > > > >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week). > > > >>> > > > > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though > > > modified, > > > >>> even > > > >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document: > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual > > > >>> meeting > > > >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a > > > general > > > >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed > to > > > >>> cover > > > >>> > all > > > >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache > > > >>> > communities). > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for > > > >>> example, > > > >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely > rare, > > > >>> > normally > > > >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to > > > >>> understand > > > >>> > > than written text). > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important > > > >>> because it > > > >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the > > > volunteer > > > >>> > > nature of the various communities. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the > > > >>> language > > > >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of > > people > > > >>> that > > > >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And > the > > > >>> cost of > > > >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost > to > > > our > > > >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually > reduce > > > >>> that > > > >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an > > hour > > > of > > > >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to > > start > > > >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also > > > implore > > > >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this > project > > > -- > > > >>> we > > > >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on > > > >>> track. And > > > >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the > > > >>> temporary > > > >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory > > anyways. > > > >>> But > > > >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able > > to > > > >>> > organize and attend. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous > > messaging > > > >>> and > > > >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster > > > than > > > >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > How does that sound, John? > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament < > > > [email protected] <javascript:;> > > > >>> > > > > >>> > wrote: > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Hey guys > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how > > > >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review - > > > >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > John > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett < > > > [email protected] <javascript:;>> > > > >>> > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and > > > >>> https://www.join.me/ > > > >>> > > for > > > >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the > > > >>> caster). > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ > for > > > >>> group > > > >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the > > > free > > > >>> > > > platform). > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with > > > planning/retrospective > > > >>> > > > meetings. > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US). > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash < > > [email protected] <javascript:;> > > > > > > > >>> > wrote: > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Hello developers! > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and > > > communications. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we > > > use a > > > >>> > loose > > > >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start > > > those > > > >>> > > sprints > > > >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on > > > >>> Saturday > > > >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious > needs, > > > >>> > > > availability, > > > >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks > > on a > > > >>> > > Saturday > > > >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings > > should > > > >>> be > > > >>> > > around > > > >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint > > > Planning > > > >>> > > > meetings. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time > audio > > > >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other > necessary > > > >>> times, > > > >>> > > and > > > >>> > > > I > > > >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen > sharing > > / > > > >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other > > necessary > > > >>> > times, > > > >>> > > > and > > > >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat > > > system > > > >>> > beyond > > > >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this > > > >>> audience > > > >>> > to > > > >>> > > > > propose candidates. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION > > > DEADLINES > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding > > these > > > >>> > > proposals > > > >>> > > > in > > > >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. > (That > > > is > > > >>> 8:00 > > > >>> > > PM > > > >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday > > > April > > > >>> 21, > > > >>> > > > 2016). > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff > > > meeting, > > > >>> if > > > >>> > we > > > >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be > discussed > > > and > > > >>> > > decided > > > >>> > > > no > > > >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it > would > > > be > > > >>> most > > > >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a > meeting > > > day > > > >>> for > > > >>> > > the > > > >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted > by > > > >>> 6:00 AM > > > >>> > > GMT > > > >>> > > > > Friday, April 22. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via > > > email > > > >>> > > > starting > > > >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed > no > > > >>> later > > > >>> > than > > > >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments. > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time! > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > David Ash > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- Regards, Cordialement, Emmanuel Lécharny www.iktek.com
