Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when you listed those team chat options?
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <[email protected]> wrote: > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape as a major > threat to getting some momentum rolling. > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that allows > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of the > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and think this > diversity is what helps us move forward. > > So, let's move forward. > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on these > proposals? > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <[email protected]> wrote: > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this: >> >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send out a >>> summary after the meeting. >> >> >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for this >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a more >> positive name. >> >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be set well >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of days. And >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and I agree >> that it's beneficial. >> >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet, so having >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> David >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid co-location of >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using tools >>> like >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community to >>> build >>> some level of governance around how communication from the real time >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists). One way >>> to >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information for >>> the >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick times >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual UTC >>> time is not reasonable for all. >>> >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how you're >>> planning to operate. >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> > John, >>> > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the >>> communication >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the list of >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week). >>> > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though modified, >>> even >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document: >>> > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual >>> meeting >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a general >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed to >>> cover >>> > all >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache >>> > communities). >>> > > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for >>> example, >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely rare, >>> > normally >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to >>> understand >>> > > than written text). >>> > > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important >>> because it >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the volunteer >>> > > nature of the various communities. >>> > >>> > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the >>> language >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of people >>> that >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And the >>> cost of >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost to our >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually reduce >>> that >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an hour of >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to start >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die. >>> > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also implore >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this project -- >>> we >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on >>> track. And >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo. >>> > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the >>> temporary >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory anyways. >>> But >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able to >>> > organize and attend. >>> > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous messaging >>> and >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster than >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion. >>> > >>> > How does that sound, John? >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <[email protected] >>> > >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > Hey guys >>> > > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review - >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html >>> > > >>> > > John >>> > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <[email protected]> >>> > > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and >>> https://www.join.me/ >>> > > for >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the >>> caster). >>> > > > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for >>> group >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free >>> > > > platform). >>> > > > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective >>> > > > meetings. >>> > > > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US). >>> > > > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <[email protected]> >>> > wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > > Hello developers! >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a >>> > loose >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those >>> > > sprints >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on >>> Saturday >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs, >>> > > > availability, >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a >>> > > Saturday >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should >>> be >>> > > around >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning >>> > > > meetings. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary >>> times, >>> > > and >>> > > > I >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing / >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary >>> > times, >>> > > > and >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system >>> > beyond >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this >>> audience >>> > to >>> > > > > propose candidates. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these >>> > > proposals >>> > > > in >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is >>> 8:00 >>> > > PM >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April >>> 21, >>> > > > 2016). >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, >>> if >>> > we >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and >>> > > decided >>> > > > no >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be >>> most >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day >>> for >>> > > the >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by >>> 6:00 AM >>> > > GMT >>> > > > > Friday, April 22. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email >>> > > > starting >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no >>> later >>> > than >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time! >>> > > > > >>> > > > > David Ash >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >>> >> >> >
