On 9 Sep 2014 at 16:13:37, Thomas Mortagne
([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9 Sep 2014 at 15:49:06, Thomas Mortagne
> > ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:41 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On 9 Sep 2014 at 15:23:35, Eduard Moraru
> >> > ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> +1 for Thomas' logic. If its own maker dropped support for it, there is
> >> >> no
> >> >> logic in us supporting it. "simple and easy to defend”.
> >> >
> >> > -1 because:
> >> >
> >> > A) it’s very difficult to know which support you’re talking about (see
> >> > below for examples of the 4 dates for IE6.0.x)
> >> > B) it has never worked like this and never will… It all depends on our
> >> > use base and what they are using...
> >> > C) Based on your rule we should still support IE6 SP3 since it’s still
> >> > supported by MS on Windows Server 2003! (see below)
> >>
> >> You should reread what I suggested: "only the most current version of
> >> Internet Explorer available for a supported operating system”.
> >
> > I was replying to Edy’s comment:
> > "If its own maker dropped support for it, there is no logic in us
> > supporting it. "simple and easy to defend”."
> >
> > I think there has been some confusion about your proposal then because
> > there are 2 different things:
> > - not supporting a IE version that MS doesn’t support
> > - only supporting the latest IE version
> >
> >> So
> >> based on what's on
> >> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle.
> >>
> >> So no we would not have to support IE6, we would actually drop IE8 and 9.
> >
> > And IE10 I guess since the most recent is IE11.
>
> Again you did not really carefully read what I said, I never talked
> about the latest IE, I talked about the lastest IE in supported
> systems. The last IE in Windows Vista is IE10.
Well you need to elaborate because your sentence doesn’t mean that… Actually
your sentence doesn’t mean anything TBH. And I did read it carefully and
several times ;)
So now I understand that you mean:
“We should only support the versions of IE that are the latest versions
available on *all* supported Microsoft operating systems”.
Correct?
We would need to define precisely what means MS operating system (what service
pack for ex, Windows Embedded?).
In any case that doesn’t change my reasoning. Let’s see what others think but
since it’s a big decision I feel it’s always better to send VOTEs whenever we
wish to drop support for a given IE version (the mail I intend to send for IE8).
Thanks
-Vincent
> > I’m also -1 for that, it’s too harsh and would remove about 30% of market
> > shares if you combine IE8,9,10. Again user usage and stop of support from
> > the creator are 2 different things and do not coincide.
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> >> > D) Based on your rule we wouldn’t be able to stop supporting IE8 now if
> >> > we wanted since it’s still supported on all windows versions except XP
> >> >
> >> > More elaborate answer for point B):
> >> >
> >> > You seem to forget for how long we’ve kept support for IE6 even though
> >> > it wasn’t supported anymore… If 90% of users are using a not supported
> >> > browser, I say we should still support it. Another good example is
> >> > windows XP which has been widely successful long after its successors
> >> > were released because it was just better in several domains...
> >> >
> >> > FTR (source:
> >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_6#Release_history):
> >> > - Support for IE6.0 ended September 30, 2004
> >> > - Support for IE6.0 SP1 ended October 10, 2006
> >> > - Support for IE6.0 SP2 ended July 13, 2010
> >> > - Support for IE6.0 SP3 ended on April 8, 2014. However it’s still
> >> > supported till July 14, 2015 for Windows Server 2003.
> >> >
> >> > So I prefer my proposal which is simply to collectively decide when we
> >> > wish to drop support for a given version (for example I’m probably going
> >> > to send soon a mail to propose dropping IE8 support for the 7.x cycle).
> >> >
> >> > Thanks
> >> > -Vincent
> >> >
> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >> Eduard
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) > > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > My vote goes to:
> >> >> > +1 to support IE11(IE10) for Flamingo
> >> >> > -1 to support IE8 for Flamingo
> >> >> > +1 to support IE8 for Colibri
> >> >> >
> >> >> > My rationale:
> >> >> > - Flamingo should be viewed as a modern skin and should be displayed
> >> >> > on
> >> >> > modern browsers.
> >> >> > - Although Bootstrap states that it support IE8/IE9 (see
> >> >> > http://getbootstrap.com/getting-started/#support-ie8-ie9 ) the
> >> >> > support is
> >> >> > partial. Some properties are not fully supported and also you need a
> >> >> > third-party JS dependency.
> >> >> > - We will dedicate development time to fix issues on a browser that
> >> >> > will
> >> >> > die soon (and as you said is not supported by Microsoft and I don't
> >> >> > even
> >> >> > mention other companies)
> >> >> > - IE8 works with Flamingo, but is not perfect (for me supporting a
> >> >> > browser
> >> >> > means assuring all the functionality is working and displaying
> >> >> > perfectly on
> >> >> > it). If an user really needs a perfect skin to work with IE8 they
> >> >> > should
> >> >> > pick Colibri
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thanks,
> >> >> > Caty
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Thomas Mortagne > > >
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > > > wrote:
> >> >> > > >> Ok let me rephrase that a bit, what I would like to apply is
> >> >> > > >> what MS
> >> >> > > >> plan to upgrade: "only the most current version of Internet
> >> >> > > >> Explorer
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > s/upgrade/apply/
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >> available for a supported operating system". So based on what's
> >> >> > > >> on
> >> >> > > >> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Right now this mean dropping support for 8 and 9.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > > >> wrote:
> >> >> > > >>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:45 PM, [email protected] <
> >> >> > [email protected]>
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > > >>>>
> >> >> > > >>>>
> >> >> > > >>>>
> >> >> > > >>>>
> >> >> > > >>>> On 4 Sep 2014 at 16:43:42, Thomas Mortagne (
> >> >> > [email protected]
> >> >> > > (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
> >> >> > > >>>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> IMO we should modify
> >> >> > > >>>>>
> >> >> > http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/BrowserSupportStrategy
> >> >> > > >>>>> with something like "we support what Microsoft support". It's
> >> >> > simple
> >> >> > > >>>>> and easy to defend IMO (why the hell would we do what
> >> >> > > >>>>> Microsoft
> >> >> > does
> >> >> > > >>>>> not ?).
> >> >> > > >>>>
> >> >> > > >>>> I don’t like this too much because there are various levels of
> >> >> > > support. General support and the companies take specific IE support
> >> >> > > for
> >> >> > > older versions.
> >> >> > > >>>
> >> >> > > >>> I'm talking about general support (what MS call "mainstream
> >> >> > > >>> support"
> >> >> > > >>> on http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle) of
> >> >> > > >>> course
> >> >> > > >>> since that's what we are talking about here.
> >> >> > > >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>
> >> >> > > >>>> And then I don’t necessarily agree to support old versions of
> >> >> > > >>>> IE
> >> >> > even
> >> >> > > if MS support them. For me it’s our choice to make.
> >> >> > > >>>>
> >> >> > > >>>> Thanks
> >> >> > > >>>> -Vincent
> >> >> > > >>>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie"
> >> >> > > >>>>> Delhumeau
> >> >> > > >>>>> wrote:
> >> >> > > >>>>> > +1 for IE9/10/11
> >> >> > > >>>>> > +0 for IE8 (there is a lot of users but even Microsoft does
> >> >> > > >>>>> > not
> >> >> > > support it!)
> >> >> > > >>>>> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> > 2014-09-04 16:11 GMT+02:00 Thomas Mortagne :
> >> >> > > >>>>> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> wrote:
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> > What about supporting what Microsoft support ? That
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> > means not
> >> >> > > IE9/10/11
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> only.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> Remove the "not" of course.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> > See
> >> >> > > >>>>> >>
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2014/08/07/stay-up-to-date-with-internet-explorer.aspx
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> .
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> > IMO we should not do more that the own browser editor
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> > does.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 3:40 PM, [email protected]
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> wrote:
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> Reviving this thread since we need to decide and lots of
> >> >> > > committers
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> haven’t voted yet!
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> I’ve updated
> >> >> > > >>>>> >>
> >> >> > > http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/BrowserSupportStrategy
> >> >> > with
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> recent market share.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> Note that there are various other sources and they
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> don’t seem
> >> >> > > to show
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> similar data:
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> -
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> -
> >> >> > > http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts_de_march%C3%A9_des_navigateurs_web
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> However I think they all show that if we wish to
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> support 80%
> >> >> > > of users
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> we have to support about the 10 top browsers used and
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> AFAICS
> >> >> > this
> >> >> > > includes:
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - IE8/9/10/11
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - FF latest
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - Chrome latest
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - Safari latest
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> It seems market shared for IE8/9 are still high.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> However IE10
> >> >> > > is less
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> high (probably because those who upgraded to it quickly
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> upgraded
> >> >> > > to IE11)?
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> So far we have the following votes:
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - Andrea: +1 to support IE10/11
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - Vincent: +1 to support IE10/11
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - Marius: +1 to support IE11, +0 to support IE8/9/10
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> Thanks
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> -Vincent
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> On 10 Jun 2014 at 09:08:43, [email protected] (
> >> >> > > [email protected]
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> Hi Andrea/all,
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> On 10 Jun 2014 at 08:46:45, Andreea Popescu (
> >> >> > > [email protected]
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > Hello all,
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > Following the "Start supporting IE10 and IE11"
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > thread I’d
> >> >> > > like to
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> propose
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > to vote if we will support IE10 and IE11.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> FTR the thread in question is at
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> http://markmail.org/message/zjlbcfkl5cqnrwfk
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > The most important reasons for supporting these
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > versions
> >> >> > > are:
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > - Internet Explorer 8 and Internet Explorer 9 are
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > still
> >> >> > > widely used
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> by
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > users, but many of them are currently choosing to
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > update
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > > IE10 and
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> IE11.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > - according to netmarketshare.com (Browsers ->
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > Desktop
> >> >> > > Share by
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> Version)
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > from a total of 100%, IE10 is used by 6.85% users
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > and IE11
> >> >> > > by 16.61%
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> users.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > It’s true that IE10 is not as popular as the older
> >> >> > versions
> >> >> > > (IE8 -
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> 20.85%
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > and IE9 - 8.89%), but its usage percentage is still
> >> >> > > significant.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > Here’s my +1.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> On the above-mentioned thread Marius had proposed to
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> support
> >> >> > > only the
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> latest version of each browser, which is basically what
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> we’re
> >> >> > > doing except
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> for IE. The rationale is that it takes time to support all
> >> >> > > browsers and the
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> community can only do so much. Companies offering paid
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> services
> >> >> > > on top of
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> XWiki could support the other browser versions for their
> >> >> > > customers.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> While I understand that, my POV is a bit different:
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> I’d like
> >> >> > > that we
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> support the top browsers/versions used by the majority of
> >> >> > people,
> >> >> > > because I
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> feel XWiki will be successful if the majority of people
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> can use
> >> >> > > it without
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> problems.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> Looking at the graph at
> >> >> > > >>>>> >>
> >> >> > > http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/BrowserSupportStrategy
> >> >> > > if
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> we were to support at least the top 6 browser/versions we
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> would
> >> >> > > cover 70%
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> of the user base. For IE this means supporting IE8-11.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> Note that
> >> >> > > strangely
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> IE8 is the top browser in market shares, way above most of
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> the
> >> >> > > others… Not
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> supporting it ATM would mean “loosing" 20%+ of users. If
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> we have
> >> >> > > problems
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> supporting, say the top 10 browsers, then we can drop to
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> top 6,
> >> >> > > if that’s
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> an issue, then to top 5, etc. ATM we’re supporting 5
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> browsers
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > > with
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> IE10-11, this would mean raising to 7 browsers. I propose
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> that
> >> >> > we
> >> >> > > try it
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> with the additional 2 browsers (IE10-11) and see if it’s a
> >> >> > burden
> >> >> > > for us or
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> it’s manageable.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> So there are 2 questions in here:
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> - Starting the support for IE10-11: I’m +1 for that
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> - Deciding if we want to support only one version for
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> each
> >> >> > > browser or
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> instead support the highest browsers in marketshare. I’m
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> +1 for
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> marketshare approach.
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> Thanks
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> -Vincent
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> devs mailing list
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> [email protected]
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> > --
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> > Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > > >>>>> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> --
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> devs mailing list
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> [email protected]
> >> >> > > >>>>> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> >> > > >>>>> >>
> >> >> > > >>>>> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > > >>>>> > devs mailing list
> >> >> > > >>>>> > [email protected]
> >> >> > > >>>>> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> >> > > >>>>>
> >> >> > > >>>>>
> >> >> > > >>>>>
> >> >> > > >>>>> --
> >> >> > > >>>>> Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >> > > >>>>> devs mailing list
> >> >> > > >>>>> [email protected]
> >> >> > > >>>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> >> > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >> > > >>>> devs mailing list
> >> >> > > >>>> [email protected]
> >> >> > > >>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> >> > > >>>
> >> >> > > >>>
> >> >> > > >>>
> >> >> > > >>> --
> >> >> > > >>> Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> --
> >> >> > > >> Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > --
> >> >> > > > Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > --
> >> >> > > Thomas Mortagne
> >> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > > devs mailing list
> >> >> > > [email protected]
> >> >> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > devs mailing list
> >> >> > [email protected]
> >> >> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> >> >
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> devs mailing list
> >> >> [email protected]
> >> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > devs mailing list
> >> > [email protected]
> >> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Thomas Mortagne
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> devs mailing list
> >> [email protected]
> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
>
>
> --
> Thomas Mortagne
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
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