On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[email protected]> wrote: > On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On 9 Sep 2014 at 15:49:06, Thomas Mortagne >> ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:41 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>> > >>> > On 9 Sep 2014 at 15:23:35, Eduard Moraru >>> > ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote: >>> > >>> >> +1 for Thomas' logic. If its own maker dropped support for it, there is >>> >> no >>> >> logic in us supporting it. "simple and easy to defend”. >>> > >>> > -1 because: >>> > >>> > A) it’s very difficult to know which support you’re talking about (see >>> > below for examples of the 4 dates for IE6.0.x) >>> > B) it has never worked like this and never will… It all depends on our >>> > use base and what they are using... >>> > C) Based on your rule we should still support IE6 SP3 since it’s still >>> > supported by MS on Windows Server 2003! (see below) >>> >>> You should reread what I suggested: "only the most current version of >>> Internet Explorer available for a supported operating system”. >> >> I was replying to Edy’s comment: >> "If its own maker dropped support for it, there is no logic in us supporting >> it. "simple and easy to defend”." >> >> I think there has been some confusion about your proposal then because there >> are 2 different things: >> - not supporting a IE version that MS doesn’t support >> - only supporting the latest IE version >> >>> So >>> based on what's on >>> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle. >>> >>> So no we would not have to support IE6, we would actually drop IE8 and 9. >> >> And IE10 I guess since the most recent is IE11. > > Again you did not really carefully read what I said, I never talked > about the latest IE, I talked about the lastest IE in supported > systems. The last IE in Windows Vista is IE10.
And again that's the rule MS plan to apply, they just delayed the application of this rule. See the blog post I mentioned. > >> >> I’m also -1 for that, it’s too harsh and would remove about 30% of market >> shares if you combine IE8,9,10. Again user usage and stop of support from >> the creator are 2 different things and do not coincide. >> >> Thanks >> -Vincent >> >>> > D) Based on your rule we wouldn’t be able to stop supporting IE8 now if >>> > we wanted since it’s still supported on all windows versions except XP >>> > >>> > More elaborate answer for point B): >>> > >>> > You seem to forget for how long we’ve kept support for IE6 even though it >>> > wasn’t supported anymore… If 90% of users are using a not supported >>> > browser, I say we should still support it. Another good example is >>> > windows XP which has been widely successful long after its successors >>> > were released because it was just better in several domains... >>> > >>> > FTR (source: >>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_6#Release_history): >>> > - Support for IE6.0 ended September 30, 2004 >>> > - Support for IE6.0 SP1 ended October 10, 2006 >>> > - Support for IE6.0 SP2 ended July 13, 2010 >>> > - Support for IE6.0 SP3 ended on April 8, 2014. However it’s still >>> > supported till July 14, 2015 for Windows Server 2003. >>> > >>> > So I prefer my proposal which is simply to collectively decide when we >>> > wish to drop support for a given version (for example I’m probably going >>> > to send soon a mail to propose dropping IE8 support for the 7.x cycle). >>> > >>> > Thanks >>> > -Vincent >>> > >>> >> Thanks, >>> >> Eduard >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) > > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > My vote goes to: >>> >> > +1 to support IE11(IE10) for Flamingo >>> >> > -1 to support IE8 for Flamingo >>> >> > +1 to support IE8 for Colibri >>> >> > >>> >> > My rationale: >>> >> > - Flamingo should be viewed as a modern skin and should be displayed on >>> >> > modern browsers. >>> >> > - Although Bootstrap states that it support IE8/IE9 (see >>> >> > http://getbootstrap.com/getting-started/#support-ie8-ie9 ) the support >>> >> > is >>> >> > partial. Some properties are not fully supported and also you need a >>> >> > third-party JS dependency. >>> >> > - We will dedicate development time to fix issues on a browser that >>> >> > will >>> >> > die soon (and as you said is not supported by Microsoft and I don't >>> >> > even >>> >> > mention other companies) >>> >> > - IE8 works with Flamingo, but is not perfect (for me supporting a >>> >> > browser >>> >> > means assuring all the functionality is working and displaying >>> >> > perfectly on >>> >> > it). If an user really needs a perfect skin to work with IE8 they >>> >> > should >>> >> > pick Colibri >>> >> > >>> >> > Thanks, >>> >> > Caty >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Thomas Mortagne > > > >>> >> > wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > wrote: >>> >> > > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > > wrote: >>> >> > > >> Ok let me rephrase that a bit, what I would like to apply is what >>> >> > > >> MS >>> >> > > >> plan to upgrade: "only the most current version of Internet >>> >> > > >> Explorer >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > > s/upgrade/apply/ >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > >> available for a supported operating system". So based on what's on >>> >> > > >> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle. >>> >> > > >>> >> > > Right now this mean dropping support for 8 and 9. >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >> >>> >> > > >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > >> wrote: >>> >> > > >>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:45 PM, [email protected] < >>> >> > [email protected]> >>> >> > > wrote: >>> >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> On 4 Sep 2014 at 16:43:42, Thomas Mortagne ( >>> >> > [email protected] >>> >> > > (mailto:[email protected])) wrote: >>> >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>>> IMO we should modify >>> >> > > >>>>> >>> >> > http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/BrowserSupportStrategy >>> >> > > >>>>> with something like "we support what Microsoft support". It's >>> >> > simple >>> >> > > >>>>> and easy to defend IMO (why the hell would we do what Microsoft >>> >> > does >>> >> > > >>>>> not ?). >>> >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> I don’t like this too much because there are various levels of >>> >> > > support. General support and the companies take specific IE support >>> >> > > for >>> >> > > older versions. >>> >> > > >>> >>> >> > > >>> I'm talking about general support (what MS call "mainstream >>> >> > > >>> support" >>> >> > > >>> on http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle) of >>> >> > > >>> course >>> >> > > >>> since that's what we are talking about here. >>> >> > > >>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> And then I don’t necessarily agree to support old versions of IE >>> >> > even >>> >> > > if MS support them. For me it’s our choice to make. >>> >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> Thanks >>> >> > > >>>> -Vincent >>> >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" >>> >> > > >>>>> Delhumeau >>> >> > > >>>>> wrote: >>> >> > > >>>>> > +1 for IE9/10/11 >>> >> > > >>>>> > +0 for IE8 (there is a lot of users but even Microsoft does >>> >> > > >>>>> > not >>> >> > > support it!) >>> >> > > >>>>> > >>> >> > > >>>>> > >>> >> > > >>>>> > 2014-09-04 16:11 GMT+02:00 Thomas Mortagne : >>> >> > > >>>>> > >>> >> > > >>>>> >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > >>>>> >> wrote: >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > What about supporting what Microsoft support ? That means >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > not >>> >> > > IE9/10/11 >>> >> > > >>>>> >> only. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> Remove the "not" of course. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > See >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >> > > >>> >> > http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2014/08/07/stay-up-to-date-with-internet-explorer.aspx >>> >> > > >>>>> >> . >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > IMO we should not do more that the own browser editor >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > does. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 3:40 PM, [email protected] >>> >> > > >>>>> >> wrote: >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> Reviving this thread since we need to decide and lots of >>> >> > > committers >>> >> > > >>>>> >> haven’t voted yet! >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> I’ve updated >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >> > > http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/BrowserSupportStrategy >>> >> > with >>> >> > > >>>>> >> recent market share. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> Note that there are various other sources and they don’t >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> seem >>> >> > > to show >>> >> > > >>>>> >> similar data: >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - >>> >> > > http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts_de_march%C3%A9_des_navigateurs_web >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> However I think they all show that if we wish to support >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> 80% >>> >> > > of users >>> >> > > >>>>> >> we have to support about the 10 top browsers used and AFAICS >>> >> > this >>> >> > > includes: >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - IE8/9/10/11 >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - FF latest >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - Chrome latest >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - Safari latest >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> It seems market shared for IE8/9 are still high. However >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> IE10 >>> >> > > is less >>> >> > > >>>>> >> high (probably because those who upgraded to it quickly >>> >> > > >>>>> >> upgraded >>> >> > > to IE11)? >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> So far we have the following votes: >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - Andrea: +1 to support IE10/11 >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - Vincent: +1 to support IE10/11 >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> - Marius: +1 to support IE11, +0 to support IE8/9/10 >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> Thanks >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> -Vincent >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> On 10 Jun 2014 at 09:08:43, [email protected] ( >>> >> > > [email protected] >>> >> > > >>>>> >> (mailto:[email protected])) wrote: >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> Hi Andrea/all, >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> On 10 Jun 2014 at 08:46:45, Andreea Popescu ( >>> >> > > [email protected] >>> >> > > >>>>> >> (mailto:[email protected])) wrote: >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > Hello all, >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > Following the "Start supporting IE10 and IE11" thread >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > I’d >>> >> > > like to >>> >> > > >>>>> >> propose >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > to vote if we will support IE10 and IE11. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> FTR the thread in question is at >>> >> > > >>>>> >> http://markmail.org/message/zjlbcfkl5cqnrwfk >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > The most important reasons for supporting these >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > versions >>> >> > > are: >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > - Internet Explorer 8 and Internet Explorer 9 are >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > still >>> >> > > widely used >>> >> > > >>>>> >> by >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > users, but many of them are currently choosing to >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > update >>> >> > to >>> >> > > IE10 and >>> >> > > >>>>> >> IE11. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > - according to netmarketshare.com (Browsers -> Desktop >>> >> > > Share by >>> >> > > >>>>> >> Version) >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > from a total of 100%, IE10 is used by 6.85% users and >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > IE11 >>> >> > > by 16.61% >>> >> > > >>>>> >> users. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > It’s true that IE10 is not as popular as the older >>> >> > versions >>> >> > > (IE8 - >>> >> > > >>>>> >> 20.85% >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > and IE9 - 8.89%), but its usage percentage is still >>> >> > > significant. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> > Here’s my +1. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> On the above-mentioned thread Marius had proposed to >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> support >>> >> > > only the >>> >> > > >>>>> >> latest version of each browser, which is basically what >>> >> > > >>>>> >> we’re >>> >> > > doing except >>> >> > > >>>>> >> for IE. The rationale is that it takes time to support all >>> >> > > browsers and the >>> >> > > >>>>> >> community can only do so much. Companies offering paid >>> >> > > >>>>> >> services >>> >> > > on top of >>> >> > > >>>>> >> XWiki could support the other browser versions for their >>> >> > > customers. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> While I understand that, my POV is a bit different: I’d >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> like >>> >> > > that we >>> >> > > >>>>> >> support the top browsers/versions used by the majority of >>> >> > people, >>> >> > > because I >>> >> > > >>>>> >> feel XWiki will be successful if the majority of people can >>> >> > > >>>>> >> use >>> >> > > it without >>> >> > > >>>>> >> problems. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> Looking at the graph at >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >> > > http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/BrowserSupportStrategy >>> >> > > if >>> >> > > >>>>> >> we were to support at least the top 6 browser/versions we >>> >> > > >>>>> >> would >>> >> > > cover 70% >>> >> > > >>>>> >> of the user base. For IE this means supporting IE8-11. Note >>> >> > > >>>>> >> that >>> >> > > strangely >>> >> > > >>>>> >> IE8 is the top browser in market shares, way above most of >>> >> > > >>>>> >> the >>> >> > > others… Not >>> >> > > >>>>> >> supporting it ATM would mean “loosing" 20%+ of users. If we >>> >> > > >>>>> >> have >>> >> > > problems >>> >> > > >>>>> >> supporting, say the top 10 browsers, then we can drop to >>> >> > > >>>>> >> top 6, >>> >> > > if that’s >>> >> > > >>>>> >> an issue, then to top 5, etc. ATM we’re supporting 5 >>> >> > > >>>>> >> browsers >>> >> > and >>> >> > > with >>> >> > > >>>>> >> IE10-11, this would mean raising to 7 browsers. I propose >>> >> > > >>>>> >> that >>> >> > we >>> >> > > try it >>> >> > > >>>>> >> with the additional 2 browsers (IE10-11) and see if it’s a >>> >> > burden >>> >> > > for us or >>> >> > > >>>>> >> it’s manageable. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> So there are 2 questions in here: >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> - Starting the support for IE10-11: I’m +1 for that >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> - Deciding if we want to support only one version for >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> each >>> >> > > browser or >>> >> > > >>>>> >> instead support the highest browsers in marketshare. I’m +1 >>> >> > > >>>>> >> for >>> >> > > the >>> >> > > >>>>> >> marketshare approach. >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> Thanks >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> -Vincent >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> devs mailing list >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> [email protected] >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > -- >>> >> > > >>>>> >> > Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> >> -- >>> >> > > >>>>> >> Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > > >>>>> >> devs mailing list >>> >> > > >>>>> >> [email protected] >>> >> > > >>>>> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >>> >> > > >>>>> >> >>> >> > > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > > >>>>> > devs mailing list >>> >> > > >>>>> > [email protected] >>> >> > > >>>>> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >>> >> > > >>>>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >>> >> > > >>>>> >>> >> > > >>>>> -- >>> >> > > >>>>> Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > > >>>>> devs mailing list >>> >> > > >>>>> [email protected] >>> >> > > >>>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >>> >> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > > >>>> devs mailing list >>> >> > > >>>> [email protected] >>> >> > > >>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >>> >> > > >>> >>> >> > > >>> >>> >> > > >>> >>> >> > > >>> -- >>> >> > > >>> Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> > > >> -- >>> >> > > >> Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > > -- >>> >> > > > Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > -- >>> >> > > Thomas Mortagne >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > > devs mailing list >>> >> > > [email protected] >>> >> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >>> >> > > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > devs mailing list >>> >> > [email protected] >>> >> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> devs mailing list >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > devs mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Thomas Mortagne >>> _______________________________________________ >>> devs mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >> _______________________________________________ >> devs mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > -- > Thomas Mortagne -- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
