Will! Let's wrangle a BoF on the topic at LISA! Sounds a lot like a previous thread started by Matt a few months ago, too.
I want to work on putting this together, seriously. ---pam On Oct 24, 2013 12:44 PM, "Will Dennis" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hmmm. the URL http://www.sysadmin.com.au/sa-bok.html does not seem to > respond (interestingly, it does ping, but the rDNS is " > mail.sysadmin.com.au".) Anybody with an alternate link out there? > > Love! This! Discussion! Agree with the NIST definition, and would LOVE to > see LOPSA (and/or LISA) pursue this. > > Looking fwd to meeting everyone who is going to LISA this year, hopefully > the conversation can continue there f2f. > > - Will > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Hal Miller > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: Lopsa Discussion > Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization > in Cybersecurity > > Geoff Halprin put together a good body of knowledge some years ago. Don't > know whether he's kept it up. Check out sysadmin.com.au and look for > sa-bok (sysadmin body of knowledge). At the lesst, it was an excellent > starting point for someone wanting to look into this now. > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Ski Kacoroski <[email protected]> > wrote: > I like this NIST paper definitions: > > > http://csrc.nist.gov/nice/documents/a_historical_view_of_how_occupations_become_professions_100312_draft_nice_branded.pdf > > 'For the purposes of this paper, the operational definition of profession > is "a profession is defined by: (1) a body of knowledge, (2) ethical > guidelines, and (3) a professional organization with a growing set of > published papers and best practices" (Cox, 2010, p. 7).' > > Using this definition, we have #2 and part of #3 (e.g. LOPSA and the > USENIX short books and some vendor best practice documents). We are still > missing an up-to-date body of knowledge that people can refer to and easily > find. > > cheers, > > ski > > On 10/24/2013 09:09 AM, Joseph Kern wrote: > From the paper[1]: > > "A useful, more comprehensive definition can be derived from suggestions > by several speakers at the workshop convened by this committee. > > That definition identifies the following characteristics of a professional: > > (1) passing a knowledge and/or performance test, (2) superior completion > of study of intellectual basis of the profession, (3) a sustained period > of mentored experience/apprenticeship, (4) continuing education, (5) > licensing by a formal authority, and (6) ethical standards of behavior > with enforcement, including removal from the profession. > > A field that possesses all of these characteristics will almost > certainly be recognized as a profession, but not all are required for a > field to be recognized as a profession." > > > Sysadmin meet the criteria of items 3 and 4, but those seem to be the > least important of the 6 items, as many trades share the exact same > criteria. > > [1]: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=14 > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Carolyn Rowland <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Mark, > > What is your definition of profession? > > Carolyn > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:23 AM, M^2 <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > It took me a long time to figure out that the referenced > study/paper is not using the word profession in the way I would. > They explicitly refer to a profession as meaning it has fixed > certifying bodies like the AMA that serve as a guarantor of a > certain body of knowledge, or some other explicit > training/qualification, like a certified engineer. > > Given my widely aired views on the value of certification in > general, my initial revulsion to the statement is softened. I > believe that the paper in question is playing redefinition > games, but keeping their redefinition in mind, it reduces my > concern. > > It's a long essay that goes into many different areas. I won't > comment on most of it for now at least, but it was an > interesting read, even those parts I disagreed with. > > > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Joseph Kern > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > /"As you know, I work the cybersecurity trade, and I am > gratified that ten days ago the U.S. National Academy of > Sciences, on behalf of the Department of Homeland Security, > *concluded that cybersecurity should be seen as an > occupation and not a profession because the rate of change > is too great to consider professionalization.*"/ > > > Dan Geer just gave an amazing keynote (that I am currently > writing up a review for on my blog) and this quote stuck out > at me as an interesting topic of discussion for LOPSA. > > Here is the text of the keynote: > http://geer.tinho.net/geer.uncc.9x13.txt > Here is the study cited: > http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=R1 > > I don't think I've ever heard "rate of change" as being > included in a definition of a Professional before. Does this > argument carry any weight? I imagine Doctors and Lawyers > experience a "rate of change" that is far lower than that of > a Systems Administrator or a Security "Professional". > > -- > Joseph A Kern > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System > Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System > Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > > > > > -- > Joseph A Kern > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > -- > "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it > connected to the entire universe" John Muir > > Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, Director of LOPSA, [email protected], > 206-501-9803 or ski98033 on most IM services > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ >
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