Will, After the Town Hall meeting they are having the LOPSA After Dark at one of the bars in the hotel. That will continue after the Mentorship BoF. Just an FY!.
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Will Dennis <[email protected]> wrote: > > (CC'ing Matt since he's currently on vacation, and want him to see this...) > > OK, how about the 9:30-10:30pm slot on Wed 11/6, immediately following the > LOPSA Mentorship BoF? If this doesn't work, pls suggest an alternate slot... > > Also, for the organizer, I can do it, but can I list my affiliation as > "LOPSA" since I can't really speak for the organization (just a member, not > a Board member...) > > > Thanks, > Will > > ________________________________________ > From: Joseph Kern [[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 2:15 AM > To: Will Dennis > Cc: Pamela Lynn Howell; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization > in Cybersecurity > > Looks like we found our organizers! A discussion on what > professionalization (the act of a person becoming professional) will look > like for sysadmin? > > > > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Will Dennis <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> wrote: > OK by me - hope we can get Matt to attend as well as everyone else who's > interested... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pamela Lynn Howell [[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>] > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time > To: Will Dennis > Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization > in Cybersecurity > > > Will! > > Let's wrangle a BoF on the topic at LISA! Sounds a lot like a previous > thread started by Matt a few months ago, too. > > I want to work on putting this together, seriously. > > ---pam > > On Oct 24, 2013 12:44 PM, "Will Dennis" <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> wrote: > Hmmm. the URL http://www.sysadmin.com.au/sa-bok.html does not seem to > respond (interestingly, it does ping, but the rDNS is " > mail.sysadmin.com.au<http://mail.sysadmin.com.au>".) Anybody with an > alternate link out there? > > Love! This! Discussion! Agree with the NIST definition, and would LOVE to > see LOPSA (and/or LISA) pursue this. > > Looking fwd to meeting everyone who is going to LISA this year, hopefully > the conversation can continue there f2f. > > - Will > > > From: [email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]> [mailto:[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Hal Miller > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:25 PM > To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: Lopsa Discussion > Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization > in Cybersecurity > > Geoff Halprin put together a good body of knowledge some years ago. Don't > know whether he's kept it up. Check out sysadmin.com.au< > http://sysadmin.com.au> and look for sa-bok (sysadmin body of knowledge). > At the lesst, it was an excellent starting point for someone wanting to > look into this now. > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Ski Kacoroski <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > I like this NIST paper definitions: > > > http://csrc.nist.gov/nice/documents/a_historical_view_of_how_occupations_become_professions_100312_draft_nice_branded.pdf > > 'For the purposes of this paper, the operational definition of profession > is "a profession is defined by: (1) a body of knowledge, (2) ethical > guidelines, and (3) a professional organization with a growing set of > published papers and best practices" (Cox, 2010, p. 7).' > > Using this definition, we have #2 and part of #3 (e.g. LOPSA and the > USENIX short books and some vendor best practice documents). We are still > missing an up-to-date body of knowledge that people can refer to and easily > find. > > cheers, > > ski > > On 10/24/2013 09:09 AM, Joseph Kern wrote: > From the paper[1]: > > "A useful, more comprehensive definition can be derived from suggestions > by several speakers at the workshop convened by this committee. > > That definition identifies the following characteristics of a professional: > > (1) passing a knowledge and/or performance test, (2) superior completion > of study of intellectual basis of the profession, (3) a sustained period > of mentored experience/apprenticeship, (4) continuing education, (5) > licensing by a formal authority, and (6) ethical standards of behavior > with enforcement, including removal from the profession. > > A field that possesses all of these characteristics will almost > certainly be recognized as a profession, but not all are required for a > field to be recognized as a profession." > > > Sysadmin meet the criteria of items 3 and 4, but those seem to be the > least important of the 6 items, as many trades share the exact same > criteria. > > [1]: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=14 > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Carolyn Rowland <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > > Mark, > > What is your definition of profession? > > Carolyn > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:23 AM, M^2 <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > > It took me a long time to figure out that the referenced > study/paper is not using the word profession in the way I would. > They explicitly refer to a profession as meaning it has fixed > certifying bodies like the AMA that serve as a guarantor of a > certain body of knowledge, or some other explicit > training/qualification, like a certified engineer. > > Given my widely aired views on the value of certification in > general, my initial revulsion to the statement is softened. I > believe that the paper in question is playing redefinition > games, but keeping their redefinition in mind, it reduces my > concern. > > It's a long essay that goes into many different areas. I won't > comment on most of it for now at least, but it was an > interesting read, even those parts I disagreed with. > > > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Joseph Kern > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto: > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > > /"As you know, I work the cybersecurity trade, and I am > gratified that ten days ago the U.S. National Academy of > Sciences, on behalf of the Department of Homeland Security, > *concluded that cybersecurity should be seen as an > occupation and not a profession because the rate of change > is too great to consider professionalization.*"/ > > > Dan Geer just gave an amazing keynote (that I am currently > writing up a review for on my blog) and this quote stuck out > at me as an interesting topic of discussion for LOPSA. > > Here is the text of the keynote: > http://geer.tinho.net/geer.uncc.9x13.txt > Here is the study cited: > http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=R1 > > I don't think I've ever heard "rate of change" as being > included in a definition of a Professional before. Does this > argument carry any weight? I imagine Doctors and Lawyers > experience a "rate of change" that is far lower than that of > a Systems Administrator or a Security "Professional". > > -- > Joseph A Kern > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System > Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto: > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System > Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > > > > > -- > Joseph A Kern > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto: > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > -- > "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it > connected to the entire universe" John Muir > > Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, Director of LOPSA, [email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>, > 206-501-9803<tel:206-501-9803> or ski98033 on most IM services > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > > > > -- > Joseph A Kern > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > -- John J. 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