Will- I think Thurs 9-10 slot is a-ok! I'll be there, and I'm thinking of summarizing the 2 (or more) list discussions on the topic, with any relevant details, before the meeting. I've got time this coming week, 80-90% free. Shall I take a stab at the summary and circulate with interested parties, before LISA?
---pam On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Will Dennis <[email protected]> wrote: > How does 9-10pm Thurs in Hoover (after GlusterFS BoF) sit with everyone? > > ________________________________________ > From: Ski Kacoroski [[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 4:27 PM > To: Will Dennis > Cc: Matt Simmons ([email protected]) > Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization > in Cybersecurity > > I think thursday at 8-9 or 9 - 10 would be great. > > cheers, > > ski > > On 10/25/2013 01:25 PM, Will Dennis wrote: > > OK, then the rest of Weds eve after LOPSA Ann'l Town Hall is basically > out due to the lure of LOPSA After Dark, correct? (and I'm guessing the > folks who attend the LOPSA Mentorship BoF 8:30-9:30pm after the Town Hall > would beeline for the LAD bar immediately thereafter...) > > > > So, that leaves 10-11pm on Tues, or 8-9pm / 9-10pm / 10-11pm on Thurs. I > have the fam staying in my room Tues night, so have a big preference > against that night (they leave Weds AM, so that's not an issue the rest of > the conf.) How do folks feel about Thurs night then? (See > https://www.usenix.org/conference/lisa13/birds-feather-sessions for the > current lineup for Thurs night.) > > > > We could also get together at any time in the hallway track, or shout > over the din at LOPSA After Dark (def. not my preference...) > > > > I'm a first-timer, so more experienced hands please chime in... > > > > Thanks, > > Will > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ski Kacoroski [mailto:[email protected]] > > Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 12:32 PM > > To: Will Dennis; LOPSA Discuss List > > Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of > Professionalization in Cybersecurity > > > > Will, > > > > I agree with John, if you could pick a different time I think it would > be a bit better. Please do list your affliation as LOPSA as this is > something I, and I think many members of LOPSA are interested in. > > > > cheers, > > > > ski > > > > On 10/25/2013 06:54 AM, Will Dennis wrote: > >> > >> (CC'ing Matt since he's currently on vacation, and want him to see > >> this...) > >> > >> OK, how about the 9:30-10:30pm slot on Wed 11/6, immediately following > >> the LOPSA Mentorship BoF? If this doesn't work, pls suggest an > >> alternate slot... > >> > >> Also, for the organizer, I can do it, but can I list my affiliation as > >> "LOPSA" since I can't really speak for the organization (just a > >> member, not a Board member...) > >> > >> > >> Thanks, Will > >> > >> ________________________________________ From: Joseph Kern > >> [[email protected]] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 2:15 AM To: > >> Will Dennis Cc: Pamela Lynn Howell; [email protected] Subject: > >> Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization in > >> Cybersecurity > >> > >> Looks like we found our organizers! A discussion on what > >> professionalization (the act of a person becoming professional) will > >> look like for sysadmin? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Will Dennis > >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: OK by me - > >> hope we can get Matt to attend as well as everyone else who's > >> interested... > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lynn Howell > >> [[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] Sent: > >> Thursday, October 24, 2013 06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time To: Will > >> Dennis Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of > >> Professionalization in Cybersecurity > >> > >> > >> Will! > >> > >> Let's wrangle a BoF on the topic at LISA! Sounds a lot like a previous > >> thread started by Matt a few months ago, too. > >> > >> I want to work on putting this together, seriously. > >> > >> ---pam > >> > >> On Oct 24, 2013 12:44 PM, "Will Dennis" > >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hmmm. the > >> URL http://www.sysadmin.com.au/sa-bok.html does not seem to respond > >> (interestingly, it does ping, but the rDNS is > >> "mail.sysadmin.com.au<http://mail.sysadmin.com.au>".) Anybody with an > >> alternate link out there? > >> > >> Love! This! Discussion! Agree with the NIST definition, and would LOVE > >> to see LOPSA (and/or LISA) pursue this. > >> > >> Looking fwd to meeting everyone who is going to LISA this year, > >> hopefully the conversation can continue there f2f. > >> > >> - Will > >> > >> > >> From: > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] > >>> > >> [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected] > >> opsa.org>] On Behalf Of Hal Miller Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 > >> 12:25 PM To: > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Lopsa Discussion Subject: Re: > >> [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization in > >> Cybersecurity > >> > >> Geoff Halprin put together a good body of knowledge some years ago. > >> Don't know whether he's kept it up. Check out > >> sysadmin.com.au<http://sysadmin.com.au> and look for sa-bok (sysadmin > >> body of knowledge). At the lesst, it was an excellent starting point > >> for someone wanting to look into this now. > >> > >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Ski Kacoroski > >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I like this > >> NIST paper definitions: > >> > >> http://csrc.nist.gov/nice/documents/a_historical_view_of_how_occupatio > >> ns_become_professions_100312_draft_nice_branded.pdf > >> > >> 'For the purposes of this paper, the operational definition of > >> profession is "a profession is defined by: (1) a body of knowledge, > >> (2) ethical guidelines, and (3) a professional organization with a > >> growing set of published papers and best practices" (Cox, 2010, p. > >> 7).' > >> > >> Using this definition, we have #2 and part of #3 (e.g. LOPSA and the > >> USENIX short books and some vendor best practice documents). We are > >> still missing an up-to-date body of knowledge that people can refer to > >> and easily find. > >> > >> cheers, > >> > >> ski > >> > >> On 10/24/2013 09:09 AM, Joseph Kern wrote: From the paper[1]: > >> > >> "A useful, more comprehensive definition can be derived from > >> suggestions by several speakers at the workshop convened by this > >> committee. > >> > >> That definition identifies the following characteristics of a > >> professional: > >> > >> (1) passing a knowledge and/or performance test, (2) superior > >> completion of study of intellectual basis of the profession, (3) a > >> sustained period of mentored experience/apprenticeship, (4) continuing > >> education, (5) licensing by a formal authority, and (6) ethical > >> standards of behavior with enforcement, including removal from the > >> profession. > >> > >> A field that possesses all of these characteristics will almost > >> certainly be recognized as a profession, but not all are required for > >> a field to be recognized as a profession." > >> > >> > >> Sysadmin meet the criteria of items 3 and 4, but those seem to be the > >> least important of the 6 items, as many trades share the exact same > >> criteria. > >> > >> [1]: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=14 > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Carolyn Rowland > >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > >> > >> Mark, > >> > >> What is your definition of profession? > >> > >> Carolyn > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:23 AM, M^2 > >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > >> > >> It took me a long time to figure out that the referenced study/paper > >> is not using the word profession in the way I would. They explicitly > >> refer to a profession as meaning it has fixed certifying bodies like > >> the AMA that serve as a guarantor of a certain body of knowledge, or > >> some other explicit training/qualification, like a certified engineer. > >> > >> Given my widely aired views on the value of certification in general, > >> my initial revulsion to the statement is softened. I believe that the > >> paper in question is playing redefinition games, but keeping their > >> redefinition in mind, it reduces my concern. > >> > >> It's a long essay that goes into many different areas. I won't > >> comment on most of it for now at least, but it was an interesting > >> read, even those parts I disagreed with. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Joseph Kern > >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > >> wrote: > >> > >> /"As you know, I work the cybersecurity trade, and I am gratified that > >> ten days ago the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, on behalf of the > >> Department of Homeland Security, *concluded that cybersecurity should > >> be seen as an occupation and not a profession because the rate of > >> change is too great to consider professionalization.*"/ > >> > >> > >> Dan Geer just gave an amazing keynote (that I am currently writing up > >> a review for on my blog) and this quote stuck out at me as an > >> interesting topic of discussion for LOPSA. > >> > >> Here is the text of the keynote: > >> http://geer.tinho.net/geer.uncc.9x13.txt Here is the study cited: > >> http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=R1 > >> > >> I don't think I've ever heard "rate of change" as being included in a > >> definition of a Professional before. Does this argument carry any > >> weight? I imagine Doctors and Lawyers experience a "rate of change" > >> that is far lower than that of a Systems Administrator or a Security > >> "Professional". > >> > >> -- Joseph A Kern > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > >> provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > >> http://lopsa.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > >> provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > >> http://lopsa.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- Joseph A Kern > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > >> provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > >> http://lopsa.org/ > >> > >> -- "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it connected > >> to the entire universe" John Muir > >> > >> Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, Director of LOPSA, > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>, 206-501-9803<tel:206-501-9803> or > >> ski98033 on most IM services > >> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > >> provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > >> http://lopsa.org/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > >> provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > >> http://lopsa.org/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > >> provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > >> http://lopsa.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- Joseph A Kern > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > >> provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > >> http://lopsa.org/ > >> > > > > -- > > "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it > > connected to the entire universe" John Muir > > > > Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, Director of LOPSA, [email protected], > > 206-501-9803 or ski98033 on most IM services > > > > -- > "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it > connected to the entire universe" John Muir > > Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, Director of LOPSA, [email protected], > 206-501-9803 or ski98033 on most IM services > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ >
_______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected] https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators http://lopsa.org/
