Looks like we found our organizers! A discussion on what professionalization (the act of a person becoming professional) will look like for sysadmin?
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Will Dennis <[email protected]> wrote: > OK by me - hope we can get Matt to attend as well as everyone else who's > interested... > > > -----Original Message----- > *From: *Pamela Lynn Howell [[email protected]] > *Sent: *Thursday, October 24, 2013 06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time > *To: *Will Dennis > *Cc: *[email protected] > *Subject: *Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of > Professionalization in Cybersecurity > > Will! > > Let's wrangle a BoF on the topic at LISA! Sounds a lot like a previous > thread started by Matt a few months ago, too. > > I want to work on putting this together, seriously. > > ---pam > On Oct 24, 2013 12:44 PM, "Will Dennis" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hmmm. the URL http://www.sysadmin.com.au/sa-bok.html does not seem to >> respond (interestingly, it does ping, but the rDNS is " >> mail.sysadmin.com.au".) Anybody with an alternate link out there? >> >> Love! This! Discussion! Agree with the NIST definition, and would LOVE to >> see LOPSA (and/or LISA) pursue this. >> >> Looking fwd to meeting everyone who is going to LISA this year, hopefully >> the conversation can continue there f2f. >> >> - Will >> >> >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Hal Miller >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:25 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: Lopsa Discussion >> Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization >> in Cybersecurity >> >> Geoff Halprin put together a good body of knowledge some years ago. Don't >> know whether he's kept it up. Check out sysadmin.com.au and look for >> sa-bok (sysadmin body of knowledge). At the lesst, it was an excellent >> starting point for someone wanting to look into this now. >> >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Ski Kacoroski <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> I like this NIST paper definitions: >> >> >> http://csrc.nist.gov/nice/documents/a_historical_view_of_how_occupations_become_professions_100312_draft_nice_branded.pdf >> >> 'For the purposes of this paper, the operational definition of profession >> is "a profession is defined by: (1) a body of knowledge, (2) ethical >> guidelines, and (3) a professional organization with a growing set of >> published papers and best practices" (Cox, 2010, p. 7).' >> >> Using this definition, we have #2 and part of #3 (e.g. LOPSA and the >> USENIX short books and some vendor best practice documents). We are still >> missing an up-to-date body of knowledge that people can refer to and easily >> find. >> >> cheers, >> >> ski >> >> On 10/24/2013 09:09 AM, Joseph Kern wrote: >> From the paper[1]: >> >> "A useful, more comprehensive definition can be derived from suggestions >> by several speakers at the workshop convened by this committee. >> >> That definition identifies the following characteristics of a >> professional: >> >> (1) passing a knowledge and/or performance test, (2) superior completion >> of study of intellectual basis of the profession, (3) a sustained period >> of mentored experience/apprenticeship, (4) continuing education, (5) >> licensing by a formal authority, and (6) ethical standards of behavior >> with enforcement, including removal from the profession. >> >> A field that possesses all of these characteristics will almost >> certainly be recognized as a profession, but not all are required for a >> field to be recognized as a profession." >> >> >> Sysadmin meet the criteria of items 3 and 4, but those seem to be the >> least important of the 6 items, as many trades share the exact same >> criteria. >> >> [1]: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=14 >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Carolyn Rowland <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Mark, >> >> What is your definition of profession? >> >> Carolyn >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:23 AM, M^2 <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> It took me a long time to figure out that the referenced >> study/paper is not using the word profession in the way I would. >> They explicitly refer to a profession as meaning it has fixed >> certifying bodies like the AMA that serve as a guarantor of a >> certain body of knowledge, or some other explicit >> training/qualification, like a certified engineer. >> >> Given my widely aired views on the value of certification in >> general, my initial revulsion to the statement is softened. I >> believe that the paper in question is playing redefinition >> games, but keeping their redefinition in mind, it reduces my >> concern. >> >> It's a long essay that goes into many different areas. I won't >> comment on most of it for now at least, but it was an >> interesting read, even those parts I disagreed with. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Joseph Kern >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> /"As you know, I work the cybersecurity trade, and I am >> gratified that ten days ago the U.S. National Academy of >> Sciences, on behalf of the Department of Homeland Security, >> *concluded that cybersecurity should be seen as an >> occupation and not a profession because the rate of change >> is too great to consider professionalization.*"/ >> >> >> Dan Geer just gave an amazing keynote (that I am currently >> writing up a review for on my blog) and this quote stuck out >> at me as an interesting topic of discussion for LOPSA. >> >> Here is the text of the keynote: >> http://geer.tinho.net/geer.uncc.9x13.txt >> Here is the study cited: >> http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=R1 >> >> I don't think I've ever heard "rate of change" as being >> included in a definition of a Professional before. Does this >> argument carry any weight? I imagine Doctors and Lawyers >> experience a "rate of change" that is far lower than that of >> a Systems Administrator or a Security "Professional". >> >> -- >> Joseph A Kern >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> This list provided by the League of Professional System >> Administrators >> http://lopsa.org/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> This list provided by the League of Professional System >> Administrators >> http://lopsa.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Joseph A Kern >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators >> http://lopsa.org/ >> >> -- >> "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it >> connected to the entire universe" John Muir >> >> Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, Director of LOPSA, [email protected], >> 206-501-9803 or ski98033 on most IM services >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators >> http://lopsa.org/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators >> http://lopsa.org/ >> > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > -- Joseph A Kern [email protected]
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