I think this ties closely to the thread on what is a sysadmin responsible for (or explicitly not responsible for). On Oct 25, 2013 2:15 AM, "Joseph Kern" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Looks like we found our organizers! A discussion on what > professionalization (the act of a person becoming professional) will look > like for sysadmin? > > > > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Will Dennis <[email protected]> wrote: > >> OK by me - hope we can get Matt to attend as well as everyone else who's >> interested... >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From: *Pamela Lynn Howell [[email protected]] >> *Sent: *Thursday, October 24, 2013 06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time >> *To: *Will Dennis >> *Cc: *[email protected] >> *Subject: *Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of >> Professionalization in Cybersecurity >> >> Will! >> >> Let's wrangle a BoF on the topic at LISA! Sounds a lot like a previous >> thread started by Matt a few months ago, too. >> >> I want to work on putting this together, seriously. >> >> ---pam >> On Oct 24, 2013 12:44 PM, "Will Dennis" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hmmm. the URL http://www.sysadmin.com.au/sa-bok.html does not seem to >>> respond (interestingly, it does ping, but the rDNS is " >>> mail.sysadmin.com.au".) Anybody with an alternate link out there? >>> >>> Love! This! Discussion! Agree with the NIST definition, and would LOVE >>> to see LOPSA (and/or LISA) pursue this. >>> >>> Looking fwd to meeting everyone who is going to LISA this year, >>> hopefully the conversation can continue there f2f. >>> >>> - Will >>> >>> >>> From: [email protected] [mailto: >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Hal Miller >>> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:25 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Cc: Lopsa Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of >>> Professionalization in Cybersecurity >>> >>> Geoff Halprin put together a good body of knowledge some years ago. >>> Don't know whether he's kept it up. Check out sysadmin.com.au and look >>> for sa-bok (sysadmin body of knowledge). At the lesst, it was an excellent >>> starting point for someone wanting to look into this now. >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Ski Kacoroski <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> I like this NIST paper definitions: >>> >>> >>> http://csrc.nist.gov/nice/documents/a_historical_view_of_how_occupations_become_professions_100312_draft_nice_branded.pdf >>> >>> 'For the purposes of this paper, the operational definition of >>> profession is "a profession is defined by: (1) a body of knowledge, (2) >>> ethical guidelines, and (3) a professional organization with a growing set >>> of published papers and best practices" (Cox, 2010, p. 7).' >>> >>> Using this definition, we have #2 and part of #3 (e.g. LOPSA and the >>> USENIX short books and some vendor best practice documents). We are still >>> missing an up-to-date body of knowledge that people can refer to and easily >>> find. >>> >>> cheers, >>> >>> ski >>> >>> On 10/24/2013 09:09 AM, Joseph Kern wrote: >>> From the paper[1]: >>> >>> "A useful, more comprehensive definition can be derived from suggestions >>> by several speakers at the workshop convened by this committee. >>> >>> That definition identifies the following characteristics of a >>> professional: >>> >>> (1) passing a knowledge and/or performance test, (2) superior completion >>> of study of intellectual basis of the profession, (3) a sustained period >>> of mentored experience/apprenticeship, (4) continuing education, (5) >>> licensing by a formal authority, and (6) ethical standards of behavior >>> with enforcement, including removal from the profession. >>> >>> A field that possesses all of these characteristics will almost >>> certainly be recognized as a profession, but not all are required for a >>> field to be recognized as a profession." >>> >>> >>> Sysadmin meet the criteria of items 3 and 4, but those seem to be the >>> least important of the 6 items, as many trades share the exact same >>> criteria. >>> >>> [1]: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=14 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Carolyn Rowland <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> Mark, >>> >>> What is your definition of profession? >>> >>> Carolyn >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:23 AM, M^2 <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> It took me a long time to figure out that the referenced >>> study/paper is not using the word profession in the way I would. >>> They explicitly refer to a profession as meaning it has fixed >>> certifying bodies like the AMA that serve as a guarantor of a >>> certain body of knowledge, or some other explicit >>> training/qualification, like a certified engineer. >>> >>> Given my widely aired views on the value of certification in >>> general, my initial revulsion to the statement is softened. I >>> believe that the paper in question is playing redefinition >>> games, but keeping their redefinition in mind, it reduces my >>> concern. >>> >>> It's a long essay that goes into many different areas. I won't >>> comment on most of it for now at least, but it was an >>> interesting read, even those parts I disagreed with. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Joseph Kern >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> /"As you know, I work the cybersecurity trade, and I am >>> gratified that ten days ago the U.S. National Academy of >>> Sciences, on behalf of the Department of Homeland Security, >>> *concluded that cybersecurity should be seen as an >>> occupation and not a profession because the rate of change >>> is too great to consider professionalization.*"/ >>> >>> >>> Dan Geer just gave an amazing keynote (that I am currently >>> writing up a review for on my blog) and this quote stuck out >>> at me as an interesting topic of discussion for LOPSA. >>> >>> Here is the text of the keynote: >>> http://geer.tinho.net/geer.uncc.9x13.txt >>> Here is the study cited: >>> http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=R1 >>> >>> I don't think I've ever heard "rate of change" as being >>> included in a definition of a Professional before. Does this >>> argument carry any weight? I imagine Doctors and Lawyers >>> experience a "rate of change" that is far lower than that of >>> a Systems Administrator or a Security "Professional". >>> >>> -- >>> Joseph A Kern >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Discuss mailing list >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >>> This list provided by the League of Professional System >>> Administrators >>> http://lopsa.org/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Discuss mailing list >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >>> This list provided by the League of Professional System >>> Administrators >>> http://lopsa.org/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Joseph A Kern >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Discuss mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >>> This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators >>> http://lopsa.org/ >>> >>> -- >>> "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it >>> connected to the entire universe" John Muir >>> >>> Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, Director of LOPSA, [email protected], >>> 206-501-9803 or ski98033 on most IM services >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Discuss mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >>> This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators >>> http://lopsa.org/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Discuss mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >>> This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators >>> http://lopsa.org/ >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators >> http://lopsa.org/ >> >> > > > -- > Joseph A Kern > [email protected] >
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