OK, then the rest of Weds eve after LOPSA Ann'l Town Hall is basically out due to the lure of LOPSA After Dark, correct? (and I'm guessing the folks who attend the LOPSA Mentorship BoF 8:30-9:30pm after the Town Hall would beeline for the LAD bar immediately thereafter...)
So, that leaves 10-11pm on Tues, or 8-9pm / 9-10pm / 10-11pm on Thurs. I have the fam staying in my room Tues night, so have a big preference against that night (they leave Weds AM, so that's not an issue the rest of the conf.) How do folks feel about Thurs night then? (See https://www.usenix.org/conference/lisa13/birds-feather-sessions for the current lineup for Thurs night.) We could also get together at any time in the hallway track, or shout over the din at LOPSA After Dark (def. not my preference...) I'm a first-timer, so more experienced hands please chime in... Thanks, Will -----Original Message----- From: Ski Kacoroski [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 12:32 PM To: Will Dennis; LOPSA Discuss List Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization in Cybersecurity Will, I agree with John, if you could pick a different time I think it would be a bit better. Please do list your affliation as LOPSA as this is something I, and I think many members of LOPSA are interested in. cheers, ski On 10/25/2013 06:54 AM, Will Dennis wrote: > > (CC'ing Matt since he's currently on vacation, and want him to see > this...) > > OK, how about the 9:30-10:30pm slot on Wed 11/6, immediately following > the LOPSA Mentorship BoF? If this doesn't work, pls suggest an > alternate slot... > > Also, for the organizer, I can do it, but can I list my affiliation as > "LOPSA" since I can't really speak for the organization (just a > member, not a Board member...) > > > Thanks, Will > > ________________________________________ From: Joseph Kern > [[email protected]] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 2:15 AM To: > Will Dennis Cc: Pamela Lynn Howell; [email protected] Subject: > Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization in > Cybersecurity > > Looks like we found our organizers! A discussion on what > professionalization (the act of a person becoming professional) will > look like for sysadmin? > > > > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Will Dennis > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: OK by me - > hope we can get Matt to attend as well as everyone else who's > interested... > > > -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lynn Howell > [[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] Sent: > Thursday, October 24, 2013 06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time To: Will > Dennis Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of > Professionalization in Cybersecurity > > > Will! > > Let's wrangle a BoF on the topic at LISA! Sounds a lot like a previous > thread started by Matt a few months ago, too. > > I want to work on putting this together, seriously. > > ---pam > > On Oct 24, 2013 12:44 PM, "Will Dennis" > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hmmm. the > URL http://www.sysadmin.com.au/sa-bok.html does not seem to respond > (interestingly, it does ping, but the rDNS is > "mail.sysadmin.com.au<http://mail.sysadmin.com.au>".) Anybody with an > alternate link out there? > > Love! This! Discussion! Agree with the NIST definition, and would LOVE > to see LOPSA (and/or LISA) pursue this. > > Looking fwd to meeting everyone who is going to LISA this year, > hopefully the conversation can continue there f2f. > > - Will > > > From: > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected] > opsa.org>] On Behalf Of Hal Miller Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 > 12:25 PM To: > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Lopsa Discussion Subject: Re: > [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization in > Cybersecurity > > Geoff Halprin put together a good body of knowledge some years ago. > Don't know whether he's kept it up. Check out > sysadmin.com.au<http://sysadmin.com.au> and look for sa-bok (sysadmin > body of knowledge). At the lesst, it was an excellent starting point > for someone wanting to look into this now. > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Ski Kacoroski > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I like this > NIST paper definitions: > > http://csrc.nist.gov/nice/documents/a_historical_view_of_how_occupatio > ns_become_professions_100312_draft_nice_branded.pdf > > 'For the purposes of this paper, the operational definition of > profession is "a profession is defined by: (1) a body of knowledge, > (2) ethical guidelines, and (3) a professional organization with a > growing set of published papers and best practices" (Cox, 2010, p. > 7).' > > Using this definition, we have #2 and part of #3 (e.g. LOPSA and the > USENIX short books and some vendor best practice documents). We are > still missing an up-to-date body of knowledge that people can refer to > and easily find. > > cheers, > > ski > > On 10/24/2013 09:09 AM, Joseph Kern wrote: From the paper[1]: > > "A useful, more comprehensive definition can be derived from > suggestions by several speakers at the workshop convened by this > committee. > > That definition identifies the following characteristics of a > professional: > > (1) passing a knowledge and/or performance test, (2) superior > completion of study of intellectual basis of the profession, (3) a > sustained period of mentored experience/apprenticeship, (4) continuing > education, (5) licensing by a formal authority, and (6) ethical > standards of behavior with enforcement, including removal from the > profession. > > A field that possesses all of these characteristics will almost > certainly be recognized as a profession, but not all are required for > a field to be recognized as a profession." > > > Sysadmin meet the criteria of items 3 and 4, but those seem to be the > least important of the 6 items, as many trades share the exact same > criteria. > > [1]: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=14 > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Carolyn Rowland > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > > Mark, > > What is your definition of profession? > > Carolyn > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:23 AM, M^2 > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > > It took me a long time to figure out that the referenced study/paper > is not using the word profession in the way I would. They explicitly > refer to a profession as meaning it has fixed certifying bodies like > the AMA that serve as a guarantor of a certain body of knowledge, or > some other explicit training/qualification, like a certified engineer. > > Given my widely aired views on the value of certification in general, > my initial revulsion to the statement is softened. I believe that the > paper in question is playing redefinition games, but keeping their > redefinition in mind, it reduces my concern. > > It's a long essay that goes into many different areas. I won't > comment on most of it for now at least, but it was an interesting > read, even those parts I disagreed with. > > > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Joseph Kern > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > wrote: > > /"As you know, I work the cybersecurity trade, and I am gratified that > ten days ago the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, on behalf of the > Department of Homeland Security, *concluded that cybersecurity should > be seen as an occupation and not a profession because the rate of > change is too great to consider professionalization.*"/ > > > Dan Geer just gave an amazing keynote (that I am currently writing up > a review for on my blog) and this quote stuck out at me as an > interesting topic of discussion for LOPSA. > > Here is the text of the keynote: > http://geer.tinho.net/geer.uncc.9x13.txt Here is the study cited: > http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=R1 > > I don't think I've ever heard "rate of change" as being included in a > definition of a Professional before. Does this argument carry any > weight? I imagine Doctors and Lawyers experience a "rate of change" > that is far lower than that of a Systems Administrator or a Security > "Professional". > > -- Joseph A Kern > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > > _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > > > > > -- Joseph A Kern > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > > > _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > -- "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it connected > to the entire universe" John Muir > > Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, Director of LOPSA, > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>, 206-501-9803<tel:206-501-9803> or > ski98033 on most IM services > _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > > > > > -- Joseph A Kern > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list > provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > -- "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it connected to the entire universe" John Muir Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, Director of LOPSA, [email protected], 206-501-9803 or ski98033 on most IM services _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected] https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators http://lopsa.org/
