(CC'ing Matt since he's on vacation and want him to see this...) OK, does the open BoF slot 9:30-10:30pm on Wed night (session after LOPSA Mentorship BoF in same room ) work for everyone? If not, pls suggest an alternate...
Thanks, Will From: Joseph Kern [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 2:15 AM To: Will Dennis Cc: Pamela Lynn Howell; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization in Cybersecurity Looks like we found our organizers! A discussion on what professionalization (the act of a person becoming professional) will look like for sysadmin? On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Will Dennis <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: OK by me - hope we can get Matt to attend as well as everyone else who's interested... -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lynn Howell [[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time To: Will Dennis Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization in Cybersecurity Will! Let's wrangle a BoF on the topic at LISA! Sounds a lot like a previous thread started by Matt a few months ago, too. I want to work on putting this together, seriously. ---pam On Oct 24, 2013 12:44 PM, "Will Dennis" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hmmm. the URL http://www.sysadmin.com.au/sa-bok.html does not seem to respond (interestingly, it does ping, but the rDNS is "mail.sysadmin.com.au<http://mail.sysadmin.com.au>".) Anybody with an alternate link out there? Love! This! Discussion! Agree with the NIST definition, and would LOVE to see LOPSA (and/or LISA) pursue this. Looking fwd to meeting everyone who is going to LISA this year, hopefully the conversation can continue there f2f. - Will From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Hal Miller Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:25 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Lopsa Discussion Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] Dan Geer on the state of Professionalization in Cybersecurity Geoff Halprin put together a good body of knowledge some years ago. Don't know whether he's kept it up. Check out sysadmin.com.au<http://sysadmin.com.au> and look for sa-bok (sysadmin body of knowledge). At the lesst, it was an excellent starting point for someone wanting to look into this now. On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Ski Kacoroski <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I like this NIST paper definitions: http://csrc.nist.gov/nice/documents/a_historical_view_of_how_occupations_become_professions_100312_draft_nice_branded.pdf 'For the purposes of this paper, the operational definition of profession is "a profession is defined by: (1) a body of knowledge, (2) ethical guidelines, and (3) a professional organization with a growing set of published papers and best practices" (Cox, 2010, p. 7).' Using this definition, we have #2 and part of #3 (e.g. LOPSA and the USENIX short books and some vendor best practice documents). We are still missing an up-to-date body of knowledge that people can refer to and easily find. cheers, ski On 10/24/2013 09:09 AM, Joseph Kern wrote: From the paper[1]: "A useful, more comprehensive definition can be derived from suggestions by several speakers at the workshop convened by this committee. That definition identifies the following characteristics of a professional: (1) passing a knowledge and/or performance test, (2) superior completion of study of intellectual basis of the profession, (3) a sustained period of mentored experience/apprenticeship, (4) continuing education, (5) licensing by a formal authority, and (6) ethical standards of behavior with enforcement, including removal from the profession. A field that possesses all of these characteristics will almost certainly be recognized as a profession, but not all are required for a field to be recognized as a profession." Sysadmin meet the criteria of items 3 and 4, but those seem to be the least important of the 6 items, as many trades share the exact same criteria. [1]: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=14 On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Carolyn Rowland <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: Mark, What is your definition of profession? Carolyn On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:23 AM, M^2 <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: It took me a long time to figure out that the referenced study/paper is not using the word profession in the way I would. They explicitly refer to a profession as meaning it has fixed certifying bodies like the AMA that serve as a guarantor of a certain body of knowledge, or some other explicit training/qualification, like a certified engineer. Given my widely aired views on the value of certification in general, my initial revulsion to the statement is softened. I believe that the paper in question is playing redefinition games, but keeping their redefinition in mind, it reduces my concern. It's a long essay that goes into many different areas. I won't comment on most of it for now at least, but it was an interesting read, even those parts I disagreed with. On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Joseph Kern <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: /"As you know, I work the cybersecurity trade, and I am gratified that ten days ago the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, on behalf of the Department of Homeland Security, *concluded that cybersecurity should be seen as an occupation and not a profession because the rate of change is too great to consider professionalization.*"/ Dan Geer just gave an amazing keynote (that I am currently writing up a review for on my blog) and this quote stuck out at me as an interesting topic of discussion for LOPSA. Here is the text of the keynote: http://geer.tinho.net/geer.uncc.9x13.txt Here is the study cited: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18446&page=R1 I don't think I've ever heard "rate of change" as being included in a definition of a Professional before. Does this argument carry any weight? I imagine Doctors and Lawyers experience a "rate of change" that is far lower than that of a Systems Administrator or a Security "Professional". -- Joseph A Kern [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators http://lopsa.org/ _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators http://lopsa.org/ -- Joseph A Kern [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators http://lopsa.org/ -- "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it connected to the entire universe" John Muir Chris "Ski" Kacoroski, Director of LOPSA, [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>, 206-501-9803<tel:206-501-9803> or ski98033 on most IM services _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators http://lopsa.org/ _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators http://lopsa.org/ _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators http://lopsa.org/ -- Joseph A Kern [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
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