I think it would be a real shame if this discussion moved off-list, and a failure of the lists purpose. Turtle graphics have been a mainstay of computers in education for years and have proved their worth in that regard. The turtle.py module is minimal, and isn't going to be taken out of the standard distribution just because Arthur or Kirby don't like it. No-one is proposing that turtle.py be an end-all-be-all super turtle tool, obviously something like that would be more appropriate for the Cheeseshop, and there is plenty of room for such tools.
Arthur, I for one have no trouble with your opinions and feelings, but I'm tired of your claims of persecution ("I am perfectly aware that my approach to these discussion is not likely to get me liked.") and your attacks on others who are using this list to have a genuine discussion of python in education ("Are you an appointed or self-appointed redactor of all that is Turtle in the world of Python?"). Surely you can agree to disagree without the attack mode. Note carefully: I am not asking you to shut up, just wondering if you can be more civil about your opposition. Not every educator we'd like to have participate has usenet-thickened skin, and it seems we're already driving them off. Back to the subject of improved turtles, I think there could be a two-pronged approach. The first prong would be to provide incremental improvements to the existing turtle.py (and possibly IDLE) within the standard distribution, while the second would be to provide one or more advanced turtle environments, possibly interfacing with 3D (VPython) or actual robot turtles (PYRO). I'd love to see other alternatives to Tkinter build or advanced as well (I may take this on for PyObjC, and PyCard already has this for wxPython). Obviously, these advance turtle environments would go through the Cheeseshop, not the standard distribution. Both discussions should be welcomed on this list. _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig