On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:55:14 -0500 Youness Alaoui > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Carsten Haitzler > > <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:47:32 -0500 Youness Alaoui > > > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: > > > > > > > Reminds me of some of the stuff I've been saying... > > > > As for "don't have time to do tarballs everyday".. well, that's why > > > there's > > > > something called "scripts" and "cron jobs".. those things exist, > might be > > > > good to use these awesome technologies. > > > > > > hooray for your snide comments. wonderful attitude. you were not there > on > > > irc, > > > nor did you even seem to have read the material at hand (the patches). > > > seriously, what's up with you? > > > > > It wasn't my remarks, it was the remarks from someone who wants to > > "reminds me..." wasn't? > "reminds me" was about a different thread that I suppose (hope) you remember, which correlates what this guy's opinion was. > > contribute to the project and who got offended by the way you talked to > > him. All I did was point out what I said before in the hopes that you'll > > realize that your own attitude is a problem. > > maybe you should read this: > > http://www.enlightenment.org/~raster/e.fr.txt > > whatever. i was asked to review - i was talking to vtorri about the > patches and > going "eh? wtf? why did they change api? that's really bad! why do all this > work to disable chained_mempool?..." armani turned up and got offended at > me > having ... oh dear.. a negative opinion of the patches... gasp. shock. > horror. > how dare someone think negatively of them~ yes. everyone is a hero and > everyone > is #1. no one can ever do anything bad/wrong. we must praise everyone at > all > times. > I don't need to read that (and I have better things to do than fight an endless war on who is right). And again, it's not about your criticism of the patches, it's about the way you say it. I don't know how you said it, but in the end, the contributor was offended, and my point was that the way you said it offends people. > > if you actually READ the exchange my comments boiled down to: > * evaluating patches with some level of bewilderment at many of them. > * expressing exasperation that these patches were being used for openbsd > builds > and breaking api without talking to us - wishing they'd come and discuss. > remember this is the FIRST i saw of these patches when vincent pointed me > to > them to have a look/review. > * saying that tarballs and svn checkouts are the same and you have to > invest > time to make tarballs, test, make announcements etc. to raise the quality > and > that isn't appreciably better than an svn checkout. > * saying that i was still at work, busy and i have no time and then being > given > the "well i'm a cto and you have a haughty tone" lines. if anything i > should be > offended at someone pretty much not caring that i'm busy and pulling the > "well > i'm busy too" line implying that it's irrelevant and i should just do as > requested. > > of course without any knowledge of the conversation you are instantly > deciding > i'm going off and saying things i didn't. i didn't say anything like "you > are a > bunch of useless people" or "you'll never get those patches right - give > up". i > gave a frank and direct evaluation without sugarcoating. people who cannot > handle that are going to have trouble in every FOSS project out there. the > patch evaluations from them are pretty much the same as what i did. > It doesn't matter if your comments were right or not, the way you say them is bad, that's all I'm saying, and I'm not the only one saying that. > > > > do i suddenly have to be mr. nice to everything? "oh wow! how > wonderful! so > > > awesome that you broke evas's api on your openbsd packages. so great to > > > see. > > > we'll love hearing the app developers ask us for help about their apps > not > > > working on openbsd, when we will have zero clue that it was an api/abi > > > breakage > > > added specifically on openbsd. that's just awesome. please - make more > > > patches > > > just like that!". > > > > > > if its bad, it's bad. reasons were explicitly given for it being bad. > > > > > > > This has nothing to do with the patches, I didn't know there were > patches, > > I didn't see any patches, and I don't care about them either. My point is > > you should learn how to talk to people if you don't want to drive away > all > > the contributors and end up alone in the project. > > you need to learn to actually understand the topic before spouting your > opinions. you were not there for the conversation. for your reference i > linked > to it above. you didn't see the patches being reviewed so again - how can > you > comment? how can you know that the review was justified based on the > content? > Again, nothing to do with the review, the end result is what I commented on, the guy was pissed/annoyed/offended/whatever, and that is the end result that I'm talking about. Whether your comments were justified or not (and I believe you were right) does not change the end result, which is exactly and specifically what I was commenting on. > > > > and as for "well just use scripts" - have to write and test those too. > and > > > if > > > its just a cron job... then its NO BETTER THAN A RANDOM SVN CHECKOUT. > that > > > was > > > my point... which you failed to read. if you don't sit down and spend > at > > > least > > > some qa time on the tarballs... then its pointless. this is my point > on a > > > mental block. i keep hearing it from people "omg !!!! svn trunk must > be so > > > unstable!!! how can i use it?" - it's the image that just because its > in > > > trunk > > > (or head/master/whatever) that it must be so unstable and a tarball > made > > > every > > > day is going to be better. it's a RELEASE process of freezing and > fixing > > > just > > > bugs that improves quality... not "make dist; scp *.tar.gz ...". > > > > > > > For you it's no better than a random svn checkout, good, but if they > want a > > tarball, give them a tarball, as for "what if it doesn't build", well it > > should always build, noone should even commit anything without testing > his > > work and making sure it doesn't break anything.. while breakage does > > happen, it's not something that happens 10 times a day, and it's still > > fine, if a tarball is fucked, then you can always say "use the one from > > tomorrow". > > There is a difference between having a build system do a wget and a build > > system do a svn checkout, maybe that's why they need tarballs, so they > > prepare their build system and when the release is out, they just change > > the URL instead of changing the whole system of downloading the image... > > And it's not about "svn is unstable" mentality, it's about "tarballs are > > more convenient". > > As for the scripts, no you don't have to write and test those, you can > say > > "ok fine, someone write it and we'll put it on the server as a cron job", > > if noone does write the script for you, then too bad for them, it's not > > your responsability. If you wanted, I would have made the script myself.. > > we already have a script that creates a svn tarball everyday for aMSN, > you > > could reuse the same script basically, and I could adapt it to the EFL. > > It's the same as svn? yeah, so what? it's better to help them by giving > out > > the tarball even if it's the same as svn rather than telling them to fuck > > off. > > i want people to get out of this mindset that it has to be a tarball to be > stable. any tarball will do. as long as that mindset persists then it > wastes > bandwidth, wastes time, reduces flexibility. they are obviously managing > right > now to use svn, so this means both sides have to go make changes.. for zero > gain. > You can't change the world, you should know that, people ask for something, you may not agree with it, but if it helps advance the project, you should consider it, if you do not want to do it (understandably), then it's best not to comment and let someone else do it. > > > > > > > if they require tarballs to > > > > > >> test and can't just run svn instead to fetch the source... i > don't > > > have > > > > > the > > > > > >> time each day to make tarballs when they can just as easily > fetch > > > from > > > > > svn. > > > > > >> it's the same work on their part. making tarballs is MORE work > on > > > our > > > > > part. > > > > > > > > > > > > You missed the point, we want to be sure that the final archive > will > > > be > > > > > ok. > > > > > > I'm not asking for snapshot on a daily basis, only some rc > before the > > > > > > final archive. > > > > > > (Wait no project did alpha & rc, right ?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> Note that i discuss also with a Mageia e17 maintainer, and he > told > > > me > > > > > that > > > > > >>> such snapshots will help him too. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> a snapshot has no more quality than an svn checkout, so other > than a > > > > > mental > > > > > >> block thinking svn == totally unstable/unusable and an > > > unwillingness to > > > > > use it > > > > > >> because of a mental block, i don't see the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > yeah a mental block, I think you don't want to know how many > time I > > > > > > have to reroll a dist to get all working and how frustating it > is. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> a release that has had quality assurance done on it is a > different > > > > > matter - but > > > > > >> we arent doing them every day. hell no - not with al the efl > trees > > > we > > > > > have. > > > > > >> only chance of that is if we stopped having separate libs and > just > > > > > merged them > > > > > >> into a single efl tree. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> Vincent > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > >>> RSA(R) Conference 2012 > > > > > >>> Save $700 by Nov 18 > > > > > >>> Register now > > > > > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 > > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >>> enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > >>> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -- > > > > > >> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > > -------------- > > > > > >> The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > >> RSA(R) Conference 2012 > > > > > >> Save $700 by Nov 18 > > > > > >> Register now > > > > > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >> enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > >> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > RSA(R) Conference 2012 > > > > > > Save $700 by Nov 18 > > > > > > Register now > > > > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Bruno Dilly > > > > > Senior Developer > > > > > ProFUSION embedded systems > > > > > http://profusion.mobi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > RSA(R) Conference 2012 > > > > > Save $700 by Nov 18 > > > > > Register now > > > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > RSA(R) Conference 2012 > > > > Save $700 by Nov 18 > > > > Register now > > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > -------------- > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > RSA(R) Conference 2012 > > > Save $700 by Nov 18 > > > Register now > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > RSA(R) Conference 2012 > > Save $700 by Nov 18 > > Register now > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 > > _______________________________________________ > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > -- > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
