My last mail because I'm *amazed* about what this thread became.
I never said I was insulted by Raster, I said I'm bored because I got comment on code I did not even write / asked for a review, I was pissed because there was a lot of work already done and the mail raster wrote here was absolutly not representative of it. Please read my first mail again, I will not talk out of my ass, I didn't even know Raster personally, the problem here was mainly the tone. There were a lot a background work, now you are only taking some experimantal patches and keep saying "LOOK HOW THAT WAS BAD". > armani has a very > thin skin and simply got pissed off at someone saying the patches (which many > he didn't even write, but he took offence anyway) were bad. Did I said I was insulted in my previous mail ? on IRC ? Did your read what I said ? > the breaking of api. that means current openbsd packages have > broken api's. No they have not, stop saying that please and go look at the OpenBSD tree. > that's what armani, and kakaroto are saying i did. i DIDNT.; read the logs. > i'm > not apologizing for what i didn't do. Where did I say that ? I'm disapointed. All we did was working in the dark we some people, now you came and did only show the bad stuff to the light (NO EVEN FROM ME), and I simply did not accept that and all the wrong things said here. That only engage me. On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:47 AM, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:26:00 +0100 Stefan Schmidt <ste...@datenfreihafen.org> > said: > >> Hello. >> >> I have not joined any of these flame wares before as I don't think to >> change anything significant but only start to hurt peoples feelings >> for each other. But I had to join here as it started to look like a >> witch hunt on raster here. Please take a moment when reading this. >> Thanks for your time. >> >> On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 13:43, Youness Alaoui wrote: >> > >> > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts are >> > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and >> > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to acknowledge >> > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong. >> >> Great, personal insults are getting us really forward here. This is >> one of the social skills you are calling here for. Discussing with >> others without getting into personal insults. Given this mail and the >> long rant where you "behaved like a dick" (citation from you) are >> letting me wonder if you are able to call others for things you do not >> handle very well on your own. Something to thing about. >> >> > Thank you Vincent and Gustavo for sharing your concerns about this, and >> > it's too sad that the new contributor has become another victim of raster's >> > poor social skills. That's what I wanted to avoid, that's what I wanted >> > raster to understand, and I was hoping for him to reply with something like >> > "sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my purpose" and that's it, the guy >> > stays with us, but I guess raster has too much pride and is too >> > self-centered to recognize his own faults. >> >> And you wanted that to happen by forcing him into a corner? >> >> That is almost always the best recipe to get the opposite of what you >> wanted. Forcing people trigger over reactions from them. Self >> protection, naturally for humans. Changing the behaviour of people is >> a long and exhausting process. Nothing you can do by sending of >> several mails. And before people even accept what they here from >> others they need to respect them. Respect them for their doings and >> ideas they have come up with over time. Again nothing you can achieve >> in some weeks. >> >> > I think I will follow Vincent's advice and not reply to this thread >> > anymore, raster clearly showed he has no comprehension of what people are >> > trying to tell him here, so this is just an endless drama with no possible >> > resolution. >> >> Black and white thinking all around. Sadly we live in a grey world. >> Nothing is only black or only white. Lets have a look at what problems >> we have here and what possible solutions we can come up with. (That >> what we should aim for in the end, a solution bringing the project >> forward). >> >> Raster is stressed out. Short on time and running at the edge of what >> is possible for him all the time. Thats a fact and on of the biggest >> problems here. Stress calls out on people making hard decisions and >> one of this is being brusque to others. I have observed this a lot at >> myself when being in stressful times. Family and friends had the >> pleasure to get me in such a mood. And even after I recognized this >> at myself (the first step, you know), it is very hard to change at >> all. Again, behaviour changes are the hardest. >> >> The work part of raster stress we can't influence much. He has to >> handle this on its own. And I personally hope that he realizes how >> near he comes a actual burnout if he keeps going like this for more >> months. >> >> But now to the things we can change. You and Gustavo are trying to >> change this project in a direction that should be more welcoming for >> developers and users. Making the community grow. I welcome this move, >> but doing something like this can not happen by bringing everything >> down that happened so far. Raster brought this all to the point what >> we have today. Motivating people on the road and de-motivating people >> on the road. Again, very natural as we don't live in flower-power >> land. :) >> >> So to change to bring in change to this community you need to earn the >> respect of the other developers here before steering the way forward. >> Bluntly speaking nobody wants to accept orders from people he does not >> respect or being paid by. And even the last part may be very hard >> sometimes. ;) >> >> For the matters at hand the following could be done: >> >> o Tarballs: Everyone seem to speak about daily tarballs. What I read >> from the openbsd guys have not been daily tarballs but tarballs for >> an alpha or rc to check if everything is fine beofre the actual >> release. Such tarballs are fine and have already been acknowledged >> and done before. They will even get some QA. And QA is something >> that differs from daily tarballs, like your script or a simple make >> disctheck, will produce. SOLUTION: Wait for the alpha and rc >> tarballs. > > yup. exactly my point. :) > >> o OpenBSD patches: Vincent asked raster to have a look at the patches. >> He did look and pointed out what was wrong. Agreed, a bit to blunt > > thanks stefan! yes. i am blunt. i don't sugarcoat things and tiptoe. but i > wasn't rude. and i'm not apologizing for being blunt and factual as now the > witch-hunt-crew are thinking i must. > >> maybe. He did mention better options though. Something that people >> like to ignore in this thread. (BSD specific malloc changes in >> mempool instead on every file using it, not changing API/ABI without >> discussing it here). SOLUTION: To calm this down you or Vincent or >> someone else can keep working with them to gte the changes in. That >> involves understanding why so much changes are needed and bringing >> it up here to discuss about a solution. Uninteresting work like > > yup. which is why on the email list i was saying i hadn't seen any patches - > but am open to them. on irc vincent asked me to look at them. > >> reviewing patches from the ml and putting them into svn. But it >> helps to balance the load. Raster is nobody who calls others for >> doing things for him. He waits until he comes to it and does them >> alone. To me that looks like he lost his faith in this because it >> did not work out well in many cases. Sure, that is something he >> needs to improve. That is nothing that stops others from stepping up >> and doing it without being asked for though. Mike, Vincent, Cedric >> and others are reviewing patches here on the ml. That takes of load >> from raster. He did not ask them to do it. >> For your tarball script you could do the same. Why must it happen on >> the main machine? You can host them yourself and when they are >> really becoming popular they can get moved. Not enough capabilities >> for hosting? I bet e.fr or others can help out there. > > sure - any of us can run the script - still have to upload to e.org, make dir, > do announce etc. - well announce could be skipped but in the past thats what > we > have done. but if u don't at least to make distcheck and you don't run and > test > and check to see that what u just tarred up works, then the quality is no > better than an svn checkout - which is what we have now already. and yes - i'm > stressed and busy and i'll instantly push back on anything that looks like > "some more work" unless i see a gain proportional to the work involved, or > greater. :) > >> Phew, long mail. To long actually. The main point here is that it does >> not help to forcing raster into a corner here. He is the main driver >> of the project and if people like to expand it need to be done in a >> way that do not offend the people that are already working on it. >> People earn respect and faith of others in their work by actual >> doings. There must not be a leader who is always right and delegates >> work into his hierarchy of minions. You have a pet peeve topic? You >> want to improve it? Don't ask for permission, do it and improve the >> situation gradually. > > thanks stefan. you actually read the content at hand. something others are not > doing. yes - i could be less blunt. if armani, vincent, kakaroto, gustavo > simply said "you're a bit too blunt" i'd agree - i am blunt. if me being blunt > offends someone - then i'm not going today sorry and pretend i've been rude. > > all over the world someone will get offended at almost anything you say. if > people read the actual log it'll be clear - i'm blunt - but not rude. well not > rude until someone decides to actually directly attack me. i will generally > respond in-kind. > > let's look at the core - this started with 2 things: > > 1. me saying no to daily tarballs as they were no better than a randokm svn > checkout > 2. me giving a review on patches with questions (then answered) and pointers > as > to how to do it better. the review was blunt. > > now let's discuss offence / feeling bad / de-motivation when patches are > reviewed badly. maybe that's the point? maybe , if the code in question is > bad, you SHOULD feel bad. it's a lesson to learn that hopefully ensures you > don't make that same mistake again. i've made my own mistakes and feel bad > even > about code that's in EFL now - but i don't go get de-motivated. i've had > others > review my code before and been made to "feel bad". i've learned from it. the > reason why reviews are blunt and tough is... that that patch will become > maintenance baggage for those who follow you long after you've gone. it will > eventually create work if it creates problems. breaking efl api's in itself is > very bad for packagers to do - and yes - i'm very annoyed at that being done. > we can't stop it - that's the nature of open source, but it's inconsiderate to > go doing that as we end up with the support burden as a result of the api > breaking. yes - i'm not going to smile and be all love and roses when i see > that kind of thing put in front of me. but i was not rude or condescending - i > stayed factual other than my "that's bad. really bad" level > comments. :| > > -- > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > RSA(R) Conference 2012 > Save $700 by Nov 18 > Register now > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
