On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:58:12 -0500 Youness Alaoui <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote:
> Hi Stefan, > > Thank you for this well written and thought out email, I agree with you on > everything you said (even the bits in which you criticize me), so thanks > again for that. > I would just like to add a few explanations, you seem to see me as someone > who barks up at raster and tries to change him by forcing him into a > corner, and you are right to believe that because I guess that's what I > show somehow. However that is and was not my initial intention, so here is > "my story" : > Initially, I've had a few interactions with raster which always seemed to > end up with me feeling bad because of how he talks to me, I kept feeling > almost bullied, but I didn't give it too much attention, I was told by > others not to take it personal as that's just how raster is. My excitement > for the project was getting hit everytime I spoke to raster. I cannot point > out a log and say "this sentence was harsh", it was just the general mood > of the discussions, the way he talks to you makes you feel dumb and he > seems condescending, even if he's trying to be nice. And while I understand > the stress issues you've brought up, I did not take these into > consideration at the time, as all I could see was someone's attitude being > that of a condescending leader who takes charge, is very stubborn, and > doesn't accept any criticism. As a side joke, someone told me that he was > able to change raster's opinion "once", and it was an accomplishment. So I > believe he is stubborn, he sees his designs, his ideas as better than > everyone else's and he understands everything while others cannot > understand what he knows, so when you give a suggestion, he turns it down > in such a way that it feels "I know better, you are stupid, your intellect > cannot begin to grasp the infinite knowledge needed to understand the issue > at hand, so I will tell you what to do and you must accept it".. this is > not what he says, but this is what it feels when you talk to him, and in > the end, he looks arrogant and almost like a bully. I'm not saying that's > who he is, I'm just saying that's what it feels like to others who talk to > him (ie. me in this case). You should probably keep in mind that you're talking about someone who epitomizes the word "specialist" in the field that he works/plays in. If he seems condescending, it's possible that you may be misinterpreting his points based on the lack of emotion expressed through text. If not, then it's probably something which he has seen fail previously and tried to dissuade you from doing. It's a running joke that "Rule #1 of #edevelop: raster is always right," but this is actually the case the VAST majority of the time and experience plays a huge part here. On a personal level, I've never felt insulted by raster's attitude. Considering that he is the project leader for a massive amount of code, a group of transient developers who have close to zero organizational skills (we release HOW often?), and tons of stuff for his paid job aside from this, I'm seriously surprised that he isn't even more surly than he is. I get annoyed and crochety when someone asks one stupid question, but he's happy to talk in #e for hours to users who obviously haven't got a clue and don't know what google is. > This attitude made me feel bad a few times and demotivated me, thankfully, > I've had some excellent chats with other devs in #e.fr and the community > there is warm and welcoming and now I usually just hang there instead of > #edevelop. This is the internet. People are naturally more extreme here since they never have to deal with the face to face interaction which goes along with offline conversations. As a result, people are more direct and to the point; I know I am. I don't want to sound like a total dick (though those who know me well know that this is a preface to me sounding like a total dick), but harden the fuck up. It's not like he's calling you mentally retarded and insulting your mother, he's probably just telling you that one of your ideas won't work. Either prove him wrong or accept that he's right. > Now I've seen many people talk the same about raster, many feel the same > way, and many simply tell me not to talk to him, or that we shouldn't > discuss anything with him, and I've seen a lot of 'hate', anger, > disappointment with some of the things he does, but noone seems to just > tell him. One thing I really hate, it's that excuse of "he is like that, so > let him". That sentence pisses me off to no extent and I usually reply with > "he's a pedophile, so let him rape children because that's just how he > is?", it's an extreme counter example, and that's how I always feel when Wow. Let me pause this while I call you Hitler for no reason, even though I acknowledge it to be unfair and irrelevant. Resuming... > people have to tiptoe around someone else's defects. If someone is being an > ass, you tell him he's an ass and he must fix himself, you should not have > to endure him just because it's his personality. Everytime, the pedophile > example pops to my mind, and I get frustrated when I see people tiptoeing > around others. > I have a lot of respect for raster, I know his skills and I'm the first to > say that he is a very talented developer. But that talent does not excuse > his behavior, if I feel offended by someone, I will tell them, I will not > keep it to myself just because I respect his programming skills. But either > way, I decided not to confront raster because it is simply not my place to > do so. I'm confused. Previously you said that nobody ever seems to tell raster that he's being offensive. Now you have stated that you chose not to do so when you personally felt offended because you felt it was your place. Whose place is it to inform him that he has offended someone? Is there a magical judge somewhere who determines these things and hands down verdicts from up on high? Note here that I am not saying "he doesn't know how he is acting." We're talking about a fully-functioning and extremely intelligent adult. He knows how he is acting and does not perceive it to be an issue, and there are others who feel the same. > Then we've had that discussion about the release, and while I was politely > trying to explain my point of view, I get increasingly pissed at raster > (and his faithful followers) ignoring some of our arguments and ALL PRAISE THE GREAT RASTERMAN, FOR HE CAN DO NO WRONG! > concentrating on the simple "I do not like/want this" but what ticked me > off is when raster, the master of being rude, tells me that I'm the one I think we all get that you think he's rude. Do you have to make us read about it again in every other sentence? > being rude because I give my opinion, and he has the audacity of basically > saying my opinion means nothing because I'm not a major contributor (== I'm Let me make sure I understand what you are saying: you work on a large project for a couple months, committing some changes here and there to make it work on some hardware for which it was never intended (even if it IS a pretty cool idea). You then confront the founder of this project, who has worked on it and its predecessors for 15+ years, and are shocked when he doesn't take your every word as the gospel? I've only been here for a bit over a year. If I put forth an idea that conflicted with an idea from, say, Gustavo Barbieri or Vincent Torri, either of who have been with the project for considerably longer than I, it would seem that I should expect them to be able to outrank me if they have justifiable reasoning. And even if they don't, as long as their reasons aren't asinine, I would still respect their seniority. Such a case occurred exactly in this way last year, when I had a dispute with Gustavo about some ecore getopt internals. I was upset that he opposed my changes, but I still respected his seniority even though he was a bit mean when he told me to revert it :) > not him). I am usually nice and polite, but when someone pisses me off and > I reach a certain threshold (which I admit, is often quite low), I explode, > at which point, there is no limits to what I can say. So when raster yelled > at me and said that I'm rude, I did not accept that so I decided to let him > know what I think of him exactly. He ignored pretty much everything I said > though. In your words, you get a free pass to say what you want with the excuse that you "reach[ed] a certain threshold," but nobody else does. > In this specific thread, I did not start the drama (I don't believe I did), > one of the new contributors says he is also pissed at raster for the way he > spoke to him, and I replied to raster basically telling him "hint, hint, > read back what I wrote in anger last time, because you ignored it, but now > maybe you'll realize there was truth in it", at which point he finally > decides to snap at me and start yelling and taking it personal (which he > refrained from doing in the initial outburst email). Any time you say "read what I wrote," you are being extremely condescending. > > Now, I'm not trying to change raster or to force him into a corner. I'm Your intent is meaningless here since you knew you were doing exactly that when you did it, but I think Stefan talked enough about this already. > trying to make him realize what he's doing because I honestly believe that > he's killing the project in some way. He's building the project, but > killing it at the same time. I don't think he has much leadership skills, > he demotivates people, he drives away contributors, he makes decisions that > are what he thinks is right and you cannot contradict it even if you know > it's the wrong move. It's a double edged sword, E17 wouldn't be where it is > today without him, but at the same time, it might have been in a better > state without him (more contributors, huge community, main WM in a major > distro, etc...), you never really know how it could have turned out. This is some pretty incredible nonsense. You state that raster has very little in the way of leadership skills, then you claim "E17 wouldn't be where it is today without him." E17 stands for Enlightenment DR17, and it is the 17th iteration of the Enlightenment window manager. This means that there were 16 previous versions of E. Since he is the founder of the project, the sole contributor for several of these versions, and the initial (and current) author of considerable portions of the codebase, it would be more accurate to say that E17 wouldn't exist at all without him. As a result, your supposition of it being "in a better state without him (more contributors, huge community, main WM in a major distro, etc...)" is entirely meaningless, and it serves to do nothing but highlight your lack of logical reasoning and personal dislike for raster. > Either way, the issue here is not him being in charge of the project, I > have zero personal issues with raster, honestly. The only thing that I > decided to do was not to keep my mouth shut only to avoid drama or to avoid > offending raster. Like in this mail, I see a contributor offended, I poke > at raster for it. I feel like everyone decided to let it go, to shut up and > let raster be raster, in my mind, I cannot accept that. And this would > apply to anyone, not just raster of course. I accept this, and I respect your desire to help the community. I do, however, wish that you hadn't turned this into a personal crusade and flame war on a public software development mailing list. > I don't want to force him into a corner so he apologizes, I just want to > tell him "if you got nothing good to say, then don't say anything" and I I think you could have said that in far fewer words than you have through the combined texts of your numerous mails. > hope he's smart enough to realize that and understand that he's poisoning > the project and put his pride aside for the benefit of the project, but I > know it's almost impossible for someone (especially stubborn like him) to > see his own faults and accept them. Again you are being condescending and not actually making any points which add to your argument. > > I think that's pretty much "my story" as to this whole deal and I hope you > can understand me better, I'll answer your specific comments inlined below. > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Stefan Schmidt > <ste...@datenfreihafen.org>wrote: > > > Hello. > > > > I have not joined any of these flame wares before as I don't think to > > change anything significant but only start to hurt peoples feelings > > for each other. But I had to join here as it started to look like a > > witch hunt on raster here. Please take a moment when reading this. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > Not a witch hunt on raster, honestly. Simply frustration at a dying > community. If someone else is causing issues, I will speak out just the > same (and if I am the one causing issues, I would not want it any other way > than people calling me out for my mistakes). You have just been called out, and you are refusing to accept it. > > > > > > On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 13:43, Youness Alaoui wrote: > > > > > > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts are > > > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and > > > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to acknowledge > > > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong. > > > > Great, personal insults are getting us really forward here. This is > > one of the social skills you are calling here for. Discussing with > > others without getting into personal insults. Given this mail and the > > long rant where you "behaved like a dick" (citation from you) are > > letting me wonder if you are able to call others for things you do not > > handle very well on your own. Something to thing about. > > > > Sorry, I don't see the personal insult in the quoted text. I do see sarcasm > though. Telling someone that "the facts were your attitude and condescending bullshit" and following it with sarcasm is insulting, and your use of the second person pronoun makes it personal. > I know quite well my issues, I am usually a nice person until you make me > snap, at which point, you won't recognize me. I have absolutely no problem > in being a dick towards people who, I believe, deserve it. I'm a > "reactionary dick" if you want.. I see raster as being a dick by default. This is a hilarious phrase, and I hope it will get more use in the future. > However, I am pointing out what annoys me in raster's behavior, and I > believe I am entitled to do that without the need for me to perfect.. noone > is perfect anyways, so no reason for me to shut up until I fix my own > personal issues. Previously you were adamant about being a proponent of the "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it" rule, yet you continually break it. Pick one side or the other and stick to it. > > > > > > > Thank you Vincent and Gustavo for sharing your concerns about this, and > > > it's too sad that the new contributor has become another victim of > > raster's > > > poor social skills. That's what I wanted to avoid, that's what I wanted > > > raster to understand, and I was hoping for him to reply with something > > like > > > "sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my purpose" and that's it, the guy > > > stays with us, but I guess raster has too much pride and is too > > > self-centered to recognize his own faults. > > > > And you wanted that to happen by forcing him into a corner? > > > > That is almost always the best recipe to get the opposite of what you > > wanted. Forcing people trigger over reactions from them. Self > > protection, naturally for humans. Changing the behaviour of people is > > a long and exhausting process. Nothing you can do by sending of > > several mails. And before people even accept what they here from > > others they need to respect them. Respect them for their doings and > > ideas they have come up with over time. Again nothing you can achieve > > in some weeks. > > > > He may not respect me, so he has no reason to listen to me and change his > behavior. But I was hoping to maybe trigger others to finally speak out. I > see a lot of people angry at raster but noone talks, if I can get people he > knows and respect to finally speak their mind, maybe he'll listen to them. > I know I'm the cause of drama here (I hate drama but I often find myself at > the center of it), and I have no issues with appearing like the villain, if > it is for the betterment of the community. I don't think this is a constructive method or venue for affecting the change that you want to see. Email flame wars (which this most definitely is, and I can provide you with the criteria necessary to classify it as such if necessary) are not productive and usually create unnecessary tension and hostility. This thread and, by extension, you have predictably caused both of these without achieving your previously mentioned goal of bettering the community. > But my outbursts have been, quite selfishly, more about venting out, than > trying to change him.. I know it's hard to change people, maybe he'll just > realize his defects from what I tell him.. he doesn't need to respect me, > he doesn't need to believe me, he doesn't know to accept what I say as > being true (it may not be true at all), but he just needs to recognize that > that's how he appears to others (at least to 'someone'). Outbursts such as the ones in this thread, on both sides, should not occur in a public mailing list. Duke it out somewhere else. > > > > > > > I think I will follow Vincent's advice and not reply to this thread > > > anymore, raster clearly showed he has no comprehension of what people are > > > trying to tell him here, so this is just an endless drama with no > > possible > > > resolution. > > > > Black and white thinking all around. Sadly we live in a grey world. > > Nothing is only black or only white. Lets have a look at what problems > > we have here and what possible solutions we can come up with. (That > > what we should aim for in the end, a solution bringing the project > > forward). > > > I've been told that before :) And apparently haven't thought much on it, since I have not seen any proposed solutions from you, only continued mention of supposed problems. > > > > > > Raster is stressed out. Short on time and running at the edge of what > > is possible for him all the time. Thats a fact and on of the biggest > > problems here. Stress calls out on people making hard decisions and > > one of this is being brusque to others. I have observed this a lot at > > myself when being in stressful times. Family and friends had the > > pleasure to get me in such a mood. And even after I recognized this > > at myself (the first step, you know), it is very hard to change at > > all. Again, behaviour changes are the hardest. > > > Agreed > > > > > The work part of raster stress we can't influence much. He has to > > handle this on its own. And I personally hope that he realizes how > > near he comes a actual burnout if he keeps going like this for more > > months. > > > > But now to the things we can change. You and Gustavo are trying to > > change this project in a direction that should be more welcoming for > > developers and users. Making the community grow. I welcome this move, > > but doing something like this can not happen by bringing everything > > down that happened so far. Raster brought this all to the point what > > we have today. Motivating people on the road and de-motivating people > > on the road. Again, very natural as we don't live in flower-power > > land. :) > > > /me wants to live in flower-power-land :) > > > > > > So to change to bring in change to this community you need to earn the > > respect of the other developers here before steering the way forward. > > Bluntly speaking nobody wants to accept orders from people he does not > > respect or being paid by. And even the last part may be very hard > > sometimes. ;) > > Agreed, I don't want to give orders, maybe I did unintentionally, but I'm > pretty sure all my mails have been about "discussions" rather than > "decisions". I give my opinion, and I want to see people reply to it, good > or bad doesn't matter, as long as you have a compelling argument.. I have > seen a lot of "I don't like it" as arguments, and that's unacceptable for > me. Convince me I'm wrong, no problem, if you can't, then convince me it's > a matter of choice, then no problem, you chose.. but if I make a point and > you have nothing against it, then you have no reason to reject it (other > than being stubborn and using your veto power, which I think is damaging > the project). If I really wanted to add sound effects which played a system beep on eina list events, could you really provide a sufficient argument based on facts why it shouldn't be allowed? Veto power exists for a reason. > > > > > > > > > For the matters at hand the following could be done: > > > > o Tarballs: Everyone seem to speak about daily tarballs. What I read > > from the openbsd guys have not been daily tarballs but tarballs for > > an alpha or rc to check if everything is fine beofre the actual > > release. Such tarballs are fine and have already been acknowledged > > and done before. They will even get some QA. And QA is something > > that differs from daily tarballs, like your script or a simple make > > disctheck, will produce. SOLUTION: Wait for the alpha and rc > > tarballs. > > > Tarballs as is are important, even non-QA-ed daily tarballs. And like I > told Jonathan, if he wants a guarantee that the tarball is good quality, > then he can just assume it is. You're conflating actual tarball objects with the idea of a tarball. > > > > > > > o OpenBSD patches: Vincent asked raster to have a look at the patches. > > He did look and pointed out what was wrong. Agreed, a bit to blunt > > maybe. He did mention better options though. Something that people > > like to ignore in this thread. (BSD specific malloc changes in > > mempool instead on every file using it, not changing API/ABI without > > discussing it here). SOLUTION: To calm this down you or Vincent or > > someone else can keep working with them to gte the changes in. That > > involves understanding why so much changes are needed and bringing > > it up here to discuss about a solution. Uninteresting work like > > reviewing patches from the ml and putting them into svn. But it > > helps to balance the load. Raster is nobody who calls others for > > doing things for him. He waits until he comes to it and does them > > alone. To me that looks like he lost his faith in this because it > > did not work out well in many cases. Sure, that is something he > > needs to improve. That is nothing that stops others from stepping up > > and doing it without being asked for though. Mike, Vincent, Cedric > > and others are reviewing patches here on the ml. That takes of load > > from raster. He did not ask them to do it. > > For your tarball script you could do the same. Why must it happen on > > the main machine? You can host them yourself and when they are > > really becoming popular they can get moved. Not enough capabilities > > for hosting? I bet e.fr or others can help out there. > > > I just think if the tarballs need to be public, they'd better be on a > public machine. I was thinking one of the e.fr machines out there or > whatever. I don't know yet how you guys would like to set it up. You have access to personal web space on e4 where you could have put tarballs, yet you did not. > > > > Phew, long mail. To long actually. The main point here is that it does > > not help to forcing raster into a corner here. He is the main driver > > of the project and if people like to expand it need to be done in a > > way that do not offend the people that are already working on it. > > People earn respect and faith of others in their work by actual > > doings. There must not be a leader who is always right and delegates > > work into his hierarchy of minions. You have a pet peeve topic? You > > want to improve it? Don't ask for permission, do it and improve the > > situation gradually. > > > Not very long email (I've seen and done worse) :) > As explained above, I just speak my mind, if I see something that bothers > me, I will do it, if I am asked to do something (nicely), and I have time > for it, I will try to help out. Having a leader is not a bad thing, but the > leader needs to listen to what the others say, and I don't believe in > having someone have veto power. > An example is that edje sound API, I've seen many people really angry at > raster's commit and people were talking of reverting it and saying that it > would have been reverted instantly if the commiter name wasn't "raster", > and I've even seen talks (more like jokes) about forking the project... I > see a community, and a leader, and I don't see why the community would > continue following this leader if everyone is angry at him and I don't see > the community respecting the leader if he himself does not respect the > community. As one of the people upset about the edje sound commit as well as the person who suggested reverting it (as part of a mental exercise, where I proved that it would not be a good idea), I still trust his judgment. If he is genuinely able to disregard all the criticisms brought up and not have a second thought about keeping the sound api in for the release, then who am I to gainsay the man who has successfully been the project leader for over 10 years? > I believe in brainstorming, I believe in people contributing as a group, > but I've learned in the short time I've been here, that the consensus is > "if you want something done, do it without telling anyone". I find it sad. Actually, it's "if you want something done, do it yourself." Do it without telling anyone is a byproduct of our "no hand-holding" rule. > > That's it for my long email, sorry for taking up your time reading all of > that, I hope you can understand my motivations and my feelings a bit better. > Thank you again for your email, I really enjoyed reading your opinion on > the subject. > > Regards, > KaKaRoTo > > > > > > regards > > Stefan Schmidt > > If you have things like this to discuss, keep it private, or at least somewhere that doesn't fill my inbox (and the inboxes of countless others). Some of us are trying to remain productive in the face of these walls of text. Seriously. -- Mike Blumenkrantz Zentific: Doctor recommended, mother approved. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
