Jose Gonzalez wrote:
> Simon Lees wrote:
>
>> On 09/04/2016 02:35 AM, Jose Gonzalez wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 02 Sep 2016 16:33:02 -0400 Jose Gonzalez <jose_...@juno.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> onefang Rejected wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 01 Sep 2016 14:06:19 +0000 Mike Blumenkrantz
>>>>>> <michael.blumenkra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> how is this thread still active
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Coz I'm finding Rasters attitude to EFL application developers is
>>>>>> deplorable, and I'm having serious thoughts about dropping my
>>>>>> involvement in EFL development. Doesn't look like I can change his
>>>>>> mind though, all he has time for is to come up with excuses to ignore
>>>>>> me. Even trying to point out how hypocritical he is isn't helping,
>>>>>> he's sticking with his guns here. I'm supposed to be perfect, he can
>>>>>> get away with doing nothing. Pfffft
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Those who've been around here long-ago-enough know that I'm not one
>>>>> to go around arbitrarily defending Carsten... But man, what exactly are
>>>>> you
>>>>> expecting that Carsten or anyone else in 'eland' should be doing that
>>>>> they are not
>>>>> doing?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you want them to fix/improve issues with Evas3D that affect your
>>>>> VR app,
>>>>> or become actively interested in it, or what? It's clear that you feel
>>>>> frustrated and
>>>>> rejected somehow, but what exactly is it that you expect people to do?
>>>>> If it's mainly
>>>>> to address the above then you're likely not helping your cause by
>>>>> attacking people.
>>>>>
>>>>> VR may or may not become the 'big thing' sometime in the future, but
>>>>> the fact is
>>>>> that right now it's of very limited use. Furthermore, those few in eland
>>>>> that may have
>>>>> some abilities in 3D stuff are likely already busy with their stuff or
>>>>> aren't all that into VR.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you feel that you're working on cutting edge stuff that will be
>>>>> great someday, then
>>>>> you'll just have to persevere and continue until it is great. Meantime,
>>>>> try and do your best
>>>>> to gather more interest in it.
>>>>> One way to do that is of course to really polish and 'sell' your app
>>>>> even if it's in some
>>>>> very early stage, but again it may be just too early for that... So,
>>>>> another way is simply
>>>>> to try and gather more interest in the use of 3D in e-guis.
>>>>> Though I have no idea what the current state of Evas3D is, or if 3D
>>>>> scenes are supported
>>>>> in edje or elem, I would guess that Evas3D ought to surely help you with
>>>>> that simpler goal.
>>>>>
>>>>> How? Well, some module for e that uses 3D - could be a 3D world
>>>>> clock, could be a
>>>>> 3D desktop background, ... etc. That's probably more interesting to
>>>>> e-devs than yet-another-
>>>>> simplistic-3D-game, and it's a great selling point for 3D if done well.
>>>>> Just being able to load
>>>>> 3D scenes (like X3D or whatnot) and use them as theming elements for
>>>>> elem apps would be
>>>>> a good start.
>>>>>
>>>>> In short, if people in eland are currently not that interested in
>>>>> your external VR app but you
>>>>> feel they ought to be, then maybe making them become more interested in
>>>>> the uses of 3D
>>>>> for e's guis, as mentioned above, will slowly make them notice it (and
>>>>> you) more and more.
>>>>> And if no one is currently doing that (3D in e's guis), then it's even
>>>>> better if you take that lead.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> thank's jose. maybe he'll listen to you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> On the other hand.... :)
>>>
>>> The fanged-one does highlight a relevant point: Just what is the state
>>> of support for efl based app developers?
>>> Historically that's basically been zero since 'eland' was always
>>> about 'e'
>>> the gui shell (you've even said that explicitly in the past, multiple
>>> times),
>>> and the various libs were there for that... it took over a decade to
>>> even decide
>>> to settle on a widget lib. And even for e/efl development, any 'docs' were
>>> basically 'read the code'.
>>>
>>> But now that the efl libs are more mature, is that still the case?
>>> If not, then
>>> what level of encouragement or support is there? Obviously this mailing
>>> list
>>> 'enlightenment-devel' ought to be primarily about e/efl development, not
>>> external apps development, so maybe you'd need a list for that?
>>> Problem is, even if you did want that, are there enough such
>>> external apps
>>> that such a list would make sense? And regardless, what level of support
>>> or help would then be available... would it be mostly up to such app
>>> devs? Etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Well at this point the elementary api is stable and it has some docs
>> (not heaps) there are several elementary based apps and a few more with
>> the python bindings, people tend to get help either here or on the
>> enlightenment development irc channel on freenode, I think once the
>> volume of traffic from app developers here gets to a point where there
>> is too much noise for e/efl development to function well then maybe
>> there may be a case for a new list but until then its just creating one
>> more place devs have to look for not much gain.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> It cuts both ways. The traffic from external app developers on the
> core list
> could be small because there are few such apps and/or because they don't
> feel
> it appropriate to bring up some things there- maybe even because they
> feel they'll
> not get any support or encouragement there... and thus it will always
> remain small
> even if there are quite a few such apps out there already. Who knows for
> sure.
> One of the benefits of such a separate app-devel list is not only to
> provide
> a place where app devs can bring up issues pertaining to the core libs,
> but also
> to allow them to make announcements of progress, releases, etc.. of
> their apps.
> All in a unified place with e/efl as the common denominator. You can see
> some
> of that with some of the 'official' e.org apps, so these external apps
> would benefit
> for a similar reason.
> This is good for them and for e as well... it's good PR for both and
> can even
> attract more contributors to the core libs, as well as show core devs
> just how much
> cool stuff people are doing with the things you're working on... I mean,
> there's even
> a cool VR app out there somewhere - who knew!
>
> It's a complex thing to analyze in full, but there are always unseen
> aspects that
> one's thoughts can never quite capture until it's experimented with.
>
>
>
BTW, just in case you don't think external app devs can become
core devs, or that supporting such people is worth it.. let me tell you
a story:
Many, many years ago there was this young guy who was working
for a French set-top box maker who thought the then-efl might be useful.
But he needed SDL support so he wrote a patch for Evas that added an SDL
engine.
Now this patch wasn't particularly good, and Carsten didn't want to
add it,
we had too many engines as it was and some were unsupported.
But I thought anyone who could 'out-of-the-blue' write an evas engine,
no matter how simplistic it initially was, was likely pretty damn good and
should be encouraged...
So I got in touch with this guy privately, encouraged him, suggested
some
changes and urged him to try again. Eventually it was committed, and later
the guy did more, and then more, and then even more..........
That guy's name was Cedric Bail.
There are others like that, Gustavo is another who started as an
external app
developer, and some others who are no longer around. So, yes it can be very
beneficial to core-eland to support and encourage external app developers.
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