On Sun, 04 Sep 2016 01:50:18 -0400 Jose Gonzalez <jose_...@juno.com> said:
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > On Sat, 03 Sep 2016 13:05:02 -0400 Jose Gonzalez <jose_...@juno.com> said: > > > > > >> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > >> > >>> On Fri, 02 Sep 2016 16:33:02 -0400 Jose Gonzalez <jose_...@juno.com> said: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> onefang Rejected wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Thu, 01 Sep 2016 14:06:19 +0000 Mike Blumenkrantz > >>>>> <michael.blumenkra...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> how is this thread still active > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> Coz I'm finding Rasters attitude to EFL application developers is > >>>>> deplorable, and I'm having serious thoughts about dropping my > >>>>> involvement in EFL development. Doesn't look like I can change his > >>>>> mind though, all he has time for is to come up with excuses to ignore > >>>>> me. Even trying to point out how hypocritical he is isn't helping, > >>>>> he's sticking with his guns here. I'm supposed to be perfect, he can > >>>>> get away with doing nothing. Pfffft > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Those who've been around here long-ago-enough know that I'm not one > >>>> to go around arbitrarily defending Carsten... But man, what exactly are > >>>> you expecting that Carsten or anyone else in 'eland' should be doing > >>>> that they are not > >>>> doing? > >>>> > >>>> Do you want them to fix/improve issues with Evas3D that affect your > >>>> VR app, > >>>> or become actively interested in it, or what? It's clear that you feel > >>>> frustrated and > >>>> rejected somehow, but what exactly is it that you expect people to do? > >>>> If it's mainly > >>>> to address the above then you're likely not helping your cause by > >>>> attacking people. > >>>> > >>>> VR may or may not become the 'big thing' sometime in the future, but > >>>> the fact is > >>>> that right now it's of very limited use. Furthermore, those few in eland > >>>> that may have > >>>> some abilities in 3D stuff are likely already busy with their stuff or > >>>> aren't all that into VR. > >>>> > >>>> If you feel that you're working on cutting edge stuff that will be > >>>> great someday, then > >>>> you'll just have to persevere and continue until it is great. Meantime, > >>>> try and do your best > >>>> to gather more interest in it. > >>>> One way to do that is of course to really polish and 'sell' your app > >>>> even if it's in some > >>>> very early stage, but again it may be just too early for that... So, > >>>> another way is simply > >>>> to try and gather more interest in the use of 3D in e-guis. > >>>> Though I have no idea what the current state of Evas3D is, or if 3D > >>>> scenes are supported > >>>> in edje or elem, I would guess that Evas3D ought to surely help you with > >>>> that simpler goal. > >>>> > >>>> How? Well, some module for e that uses 3D - could be a 3D world > >>>> clock, could be a > >>>> 3D desktop background, ... etc. That's probably more interesting to > >>>> e-devs than yet-another- > >>>> simplistic-3D-game, and it's a great selling point for 3D if done well. > >>>> Just being able to load > >>>> 3D scenes (like X3D or whatnot) and use them as theming elements for > >>>> elem apps would be > >>>> a good start. > >>>> > >>>> In short, if people in eland are currently not that interested in > >>>> your external VR app but you > >>>> feel they ought to be, then maybe making them become more interested in > >>>> the uses of 3D > >>>> for e's guis, as mentioned above, will slowly make them notice it (and > >>>> you) more and more. > >>>> And if no one is currently doing that (3D in e's guis), then it's even > >>>> better if you take that lead. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> thank's jose. maybe he'll listen to you. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> On the other hand.... :) > >> > >> The fanged-one does highlight a relevant point: Just what is the state > >> of support for efl based app developers? > >> Historically that's basically been zero since 'eland' was always > >> about 'e' > >> the gui shell (you've even said that explicitly in the past, multiple > >> times), > >> and the various libs were there for that... it took over a decade to > >> even decide > >> to settle on a widget lib. And even for e/efl development, any 'docs' were > >> basically 'read the code'. > >> > >> But now that the efl libs are more mature, is that still the case? > >> If not, then > >> what level of encouragement or support is there? Obviously this mailing > >> list > >> 'enlightenment-devel' ought to be primarily about e/efl development, not > >> external apps development, so maybe you'd need a list for that? > >> > > > > yes. it's mostly about efl and e and apps that are put in e git repos and > > thus put on e.org. it is also encouraged that app devs using efl > > participate as this is the place to ask for info from those that write the > > code. so consider it an app dev support forum too. > > > > > > Sure, but according to eg. onefang, not much 'support' was > forthcoming, and > the thread became... unprofessional? :) Not sure an app-devel list > would've made > any difference there, but anyway... he got upset when told he didn't count when we were deciding on default enabled or disabled features in configure for efl because he uses an old distribution (ubuntu 12. something... 4 years old). he often goes on about "well but i dont have that new version because i only use lts ubuntu and nothing else". that makes him a niche user set from my experience (the vast majority of peolpe who would build efl or package it have long since upgraded) and we don't account for every single person when deciding DEFAULTS. we go for that makes most sense today given the current landscape. that has nothing to do with support. then he dredged up the fact he was talking with evas 3d devs and they didn't respond. guess what? the team changed? the original ones were consultants who moved on to other jobs and there was a gap for a while with no one looking at it. then began the "no one cares about me and my virtual worlds and my work on it! you should care more"... then i was "well i have no interest in such things. not my bag baby. if you want people to care more... make it more relevant or make the bits you depend on more relevant to others". exactly what you said. i suggested gamifying his work so people might come for the entertainment. maybe work on the gfx to look awesome so we com for the "wow". perhaps simply make other apps that USE the same things he depends on (evas 3d) and make these apps regular things other use (eg world clock with a 3d view of the world etc.)... exactly what you said. more unhappiness at "being told to do work". "why don't you just try my stuff". ok - so i took about an hour of my day out to try it. finding it, figuring out how to build it or whatever was an exercise in frustration. the website is very very very poorly organized and formatted in terms of providing an easy starting point for people to go from zero to working ASAP. the documents are hard to QUICKLY read and get yourself up and going. the actual build command is burying in the middle of an ascii text paragraph. did i mention the document pages are txt files so they render as plain text and links in them have to be copied & pasted manually rather than clicked on? i told him that. it's painful to even look at your stuff. you need to fix your docs man. then it's "well i have no time to work on docs". then the response is exactly yours: "well then don't be upset if people aren't interested". and this has been festering and festering. his response to something unrelated (not even in principal or in topic) about me telling beber that my rss feed isn't actually broken but simply empty (the only thing in common is that a website is involved) got him to dredge it all up again with "oh well now YOU see". i don't. it's utterly unrelated. then this turned into "well you hypocrite" and that has crossed a line. then it gets personal. that would apply if he did it to anyone else or anyone here did that to him too. you said all the right things - repeated at least part of what i said, and i hope he realizes he's not being ignored because somehow he's being singled out. people are busy, and if something isn't important to them right now, or it's not really interesting, they have other things to do. make it interesting or make it important to them and he took that as a "oooh now i have to bribe you!". (an almost direct quote). this has become ridiculous. my "deplorable" attitude seems to be one of telling him what he can do to get people to pay attention/care and letting him know that his choose of old distribution doesn't count when we make decisions about configure DEFAULTS (he can always --enable/--disable things to make it build). i personally --enable various features and --disable one in my build scripts. efl's out of the box config is not "perfect" for me either. so what? but getting indignant about it isn't going to help anything. i'm tired of this topic. > > the documentation for using efl has improved a lot over the years. if you > > check on .rog's docs look how much there is in getting started and some > > programming guides etc. > > > > > > Well, that is indeed good progress. it can always be better, but it has improved a fair bit. our work on eo + efl interfaces is primarily about making efl easier to use and develop with. it's a big lump of work that we hope will really move things forward. part of it is even a whole new documentation generation system that moves the core content of docs into a wiki to make it all more collaborative. > >> Problem is, even if you did want that, are there enough such > >> external apps > >> that such a list would make sense? And regardless, what level of support > >> or help would then be available... would it be mostly up to such app > >> devs? Etc. > >> > > > > there's be maybe 100-200 such apps by now. in various places. the vast > > majority of the authors of such software don't participate on this mailing > > list. i dislike fragmenting the community as it's not to huge. so i'd not > > make another list. > > > > > > Yeah, but I think the purpose of such app-devel lists is to provide > not only > a place where they can bring up issues about their development as it > relates to > the core development libs, but also to announce any progress, new > features, etc... they won't turn up because the majority (vast) are tizen apps and they all use web forums. mailing lists are too old school. :) also many of them will struggle with english or just find it too much work - thus they don't come here. i agree with simotek - until the traffic becomes an issue, keep things together. > that they are making with their apps. All in a unified place that has a > common > denominator (e/efl), and without inundating the core-devel list itself > with external stuff. > That in itself can be good pr for e/efl. if it gets inundated... that's a "good problem to have" so to speak. :) > If it's up to 100+ apps then that's actually pretty damn good - who > would've > known! If as you say the vast majority of such app developers don't > participate > in the core list then there's really no 'fragmenting' that could occurr, > only addition. > Maybe keep it in mind that it might actually benefit e if they knew that > there was > a single place to discuss/announce their efl based aps without intruding > on core > e/efl-devel mails. Might also encourage some to help with core devel as > well. indeed. that's the point of not trying to split unless a split is more beneficial than staying together. > Later... and good to speak with you again old man :) you too :) -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
