On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 2:49:12 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 19 Jan 2015, at 23:48, 'Roger' via Everything List wrote: > > >>> Roger: Even if no mind has yet conceived the the 10^(10^(10^100))th >>> decimal point of pi, the pi proposition and therefore the process of >>> calculating its 10^(10^(10^100))th decimal point and being confident that >>> if you do the process that that number is either 0-9 are all located inside >>> the mind/head. My view is that whenever we talk about something existing, >>> we have to specify where and when it exists, that is, in what context or >>> domain it exists. A thing can exist in one place and not another. A ball >>> can exist outside the head, and a mental construct labeled "the concept of >>> a ball" can exist inside the head. >>> >> >> If a ball can exist outside the mind/head, why can't the >> 10^(10^(10^100))th decimal point of pi exist outside the mind/head? What >> property must a thing have to have an independent existence outside of any >> mind? (according to your theory?) >> >> Jason >> >> >>> So, if the pi process were carried out inside the mind/head long enough >>> to figure out the 10^(10^(10^100))th decimal point, that mental construct >>> for that number (which would be 0-9) would exist inside the mind/head but >>> not outside the mind/head. So, the mind is able to reify things (like the >>> 10^(10^(10^100))th >>> decimal point of pi) so that they exist but so that they only exist inside >>> the mind/head and not outside the mind/head. >>> >>>> >>>> > Roger: Just because things can exist outside the mind/head doesn't mean > that a specific thing does occur outside the mind/head. If the pi > proposition and the 10^(10^(10^100))th decimal point of pi can be shown > outside the mind/head or any experimental evidence for the existence of the > pi proposition or the 10^(10^(10^100))th decimal point of pi existing > outside the mind/head, I'd be happy to accept it. I can see that a circle > can exist outside the head, but I don't see anywhere outside the mind/head, > the proposition that if you divide the circle's circumference by its > diameter you get pi. > > > But that proposition is not in the head of anybody. A body can get a > representation of that proposition in some language (be it LISP or neural > nets, or numbers): that is usually called a sentence, and *that* is in the > head of the machine or the number. The proposition itself is what is > intended by the sentence and the universal machine in presence. That pi is > what you find by dividing the circle's circumference by the diameter is > (true by definition), and that the sum of the inverse of all squared > natural number is true, by a proposition proved by Euler. > > That is true. period. It was true before Euler proved it, and after, > although this is only a metaphor. The number are just not concept to which > time or space attribute can apply. > > There is no number, nor proposition, in a brain. You might find > representations of number, and of propositions in the brain, but it makes > no sense to say that a number is in a brain, or on the planet mars. > > Then a brain itself can be described as the representation of a universal > numbers with respect to some other universal numbers. > > If you accept Church-Turing thesis, all computations exists in the > elementary arithmetical reality, and in a very special redundant way, and > we are there, and we must explain why the white rabbits are so rare and why > the rabbit hole is so deep. The quantum almost solves that problem, but to > solve the mind-body problem, we must justify why only the quantum works. > > Bruno >
Roger: I understand that the sentence, the words and the thought "divide a circle's circumference by its diameter to get pi" are in the mind/head. But, what is outside the head is a circle, with a circumference and a diameter. There is no process outside the mind/head saying that if you divide the circumference by the diameter, the number 3.14... results. That process and the idea of even doing it are inside the mind/head. It will give 3.14 for all physical circles and their circumferences and diameters outside the head, but the only thing outside the head is the circle. The process and the idea are inside the mind/head. The "what you find by dividing..." in your sentence also kind of implies that an action needs to be taken by the observer. That pi is what you find by dividing the circle's circumference by the diameter is (true by definition), and that the sum of the inverse of all squared natural number is true, by a proposition proved by Euler. > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
