> On 02-Jun-2015, at 10:23 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > >> On 02 Jun 2015, at 04:18, Samiya Illias wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List >>>> <everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, >>>> Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study >>>> things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by >>>> Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made >>>> from. The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we >>>> need to know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! >>> And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the >>> repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. >> Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran, so >> also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha Allah' >> [if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to keep us >> mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only to the >> quantum level, but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma >> Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do >> something or how hard we tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this >> temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do or not do something, >> however whether we are able to do it or not, and the outcome of our efforts, >> is determined and decreed by God. > > Imagine you convince everybody of this. Then you will convince also the > percentage of human having sadical pulse (for a reason or another). So there > is a risk that those people believing everything is decreed by God will > interpret their sadical pulse as God anger and willingfulness to punish.
Regarding the terrible trial of the bani Israel (children of Prophet Jacob), it is mentioned in the Quran: Holy Quran 7:141 ------------------ وَإِذْ أَنْجَيْنَاكُمْ مِنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَسُومُونَكُمْ سُوءَ الْعَذَابِ ۖ يُقَتِّلُونَ أَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَاءَكُمْ ۚ وَفِي ذَٰلِكُمْ بَلَاءٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ عَظِيمٌ And [recall, O Children of Israel], when We saved you from the people of Pharaoh, [who were] afflicting you with the worst torment - killing your sons and keeping your women alive. And in that was a great trial from your Lord. Samiya > > You get the Ghengis Khan phenomena, who would have said, after having been > asked why he raped, tortured and burned a whole land, "---I don't know what > those people committed, but I am sure they committed a very great sin for God > sending me as a punishment. > > What you say is again of the type G* \ G. I think. It is true, but once said: > it becomes false, and that is a break where the devil can play. > > > > > > > >> This helps to keep us going even when things don't seem to turn out right, >> as we are assured that all efforts are being recorded and will be >> compensated in the Hereafter. I suppose one way to understand it is in terms >> of a software whose designer codes in all outcomes, and the results, though >> based on user-choices, are already coded in by the designer. The designer is >> always in full control and the decision is always as the designer designed >> it. > > To make sense of God, you need to be careful as omniscience is by itself > already contradictory (I can give references). > If not you will get a God capable of making 2 odd, and that's too odd! > > >> I suppose I should acknowledge here that, I do find, on the personal level, >> God's help and facilitation of matters that seem insurmountable to me, yet >> stating 'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] in earnestness makes the matter easy >> and manageable. Alhamdolillah [All Praise and Thanks to God] > > Good. > > God is good for personal use only. > > Only those who lack faith try to convince or eliminate the others. > > Bruno > > >> >> Ma Sha Allah: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$yA#(5:48:31) >> In Sha Allah: http://quran.com/18/23-24 >> >> Samiya >> >>> Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that >>> matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged >>> individually. God doesn't need us, we need God. >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> >>>> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>>> Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am >>>> Subject: Re: Samiya proved right >>>> >>>> God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure >>>> there will be no injustice done to anybody. >>>> The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: >>>> subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone >>>> claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One >>>> who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden >>>> throughout the heavens and earth. >>>> Samiya >>>> >>>> On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR < lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> "No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the >>>> basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a >>>> non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going >>>> to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and >>>> then I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his >>>> fault, and not mine." I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that >>>> basis. >>>> >>>> If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell >>>> really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, >>>> as Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible >>>> knowledge on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's >>>> fault if he fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. "Now look >>>> what you made me do!" he says as he tortures you. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou < stath...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias < samiyaill...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due >>>>>>>> to our own negligence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - >>>>>>> the same as the rapist's "she was asking for it". >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a horrible analogy! >>>>>> Consider the following verses: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you >>>>>> messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears >>>>>> Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they >>>>>> grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - >>>>>> those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. >>>>> >>>>> Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You >>>>> may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this >>>>> respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'. >>>>> >>>>> If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it >>>>> states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can >>>>> probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has >>>>> been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however >>>>> according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much >>>>> before being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God >>>>> states that He has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means >>>>> that we submit only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. >>>>> And at another place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion, >>>>> hence whoever wishes can strive for a beautiful future, and whoever >>>>> rejects is forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a quality >>>>> control, of being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our >>>>> reality. >>>>> >>>>> Samiya >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the >>>>>> children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them >>>>>> testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They >>>>>> said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day >>>>>> of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Or [lest] you say, >>>>>> "It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah >>>>>> before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy >>>>>> us for what the falsifiers have done?" And thus do We [explain in] >>>>>> detail the verses, and perhaps they will return. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you >>>>>> in death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old] >>>>>> age so that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing. >>>>>> Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of >>>>>> you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand >>>>>> over their provision to those whom their right hands possess so they >>>>>> would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they >>>>>> reject? And Allah has made for you from yourselves mates and has made >>>>>> for you from your mates sons and grandchildren and has provided for you >>>>>> from the good things. Then in falsehood do they believe and in the favor >>>>>> of Allah they disbelieve? And they worship besides Allah that which does >>>>>> not possess for them [the power of] provision from the heavens and the >>>>>> earth at all, and [in fact], they are unable. So do not assert >>>>>> similarities to Allah . Indeed, Allah knows and you do not know. Allah >>>>>> presents an example: a slave [who is] owned and unable to do a thing and >>>>>> he to whom We have provided from Us good provision, so he spends from it >>>>>> secretly and publicly. Can they be equal? Praise to Allah ! But most of >>>>>> them do not know. And Allah presents an example of two men, one of them >>>>>> dumb and unable to do a thing, while he is a burden to his guardian. >>>>>> Wherever he directs him, he brings no good. Is he equal to one who >>>>>> commands justice, while he is on a straight path? And to Allah belongs >>>>>> the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth. And the command for >>>>>> the Hour is not but as a glance of the eye or even nearer. Indeed, Allah >>>>>> is over all things competent. >>>>>> >>>>>> Samiya >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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