On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 at 16:50, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

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> On 9/8/2020 10:51 PM, Stathis
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> Papaioannou wrote:
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> On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 at 14:56,
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> Bruce Kellett <bhkellet...@gmail.com>
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> wrote:
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>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 2:49
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>> PM Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com>
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>> wrote:
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>>>
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>>> On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 at 12:35, Bruce
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>>> Kellett <bhkellet...@gmail.com>
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>>> wrote:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 9,
>>>>
>>>> 2020 at 12:32 PM Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 at
>>>>>
>>>>> 11:53, Bruce Kellett <bhkellet...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 11:39 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'Brent Meeker' via Everything
>>>>>>
>>>>>> List <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 9/8/2020 6:14 PM, smitra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > On 09-09-2020 02:16,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bruce Kellett wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> I don't find that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> answer convincing, because of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the implicit dualist
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> assumption. A
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> perfectly reasonable answer to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the question asked the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> night before
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> duplication is: "I won't be in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a room tomorrow morning,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> because when I am
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> duplicated with 100
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> continuers, I cease to exist
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> each of the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> continuers becomes a new,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> separate person. This is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> there is a tie among
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the continuers, with no
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> closest continuer. In
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> that situation, the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> original ceases, and the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> continuers are separate
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> persons."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> Now you might not
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> like this answer, but it is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> perfectly coherent and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> rational. It has the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> great advantage that it avoids
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the stench of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> dualism that hangs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> over your theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> Bruce
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > The tie will be broken by
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> small random fluctuations in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the physical
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > states of the copies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dualism would imply that one
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and only one of the duplicates
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> has your
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> soul and is "you".  I see no
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> problem is just saying they
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are Bruce
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kellet-1, Bruce Kellet-2,...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bruce Kellet-100.  They all
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> remember the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bet, and assuming their stake
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is duplicated too, they each
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> either get
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> $100 or lose $25.  The
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> existence of more than one
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bruce Kellet certainly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> creates problems in law and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> language.  But law and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> language are invented
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to deal with reality, not
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> define it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You
>>>>>>
>>>>>> are right about what dualism
>>>>>>
>>>>>> implies. So if you ask the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> question of the person the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> night before duplication, it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> has no answer unless you
>>>>>>
>>>>>> assume dualism. I think you
>>>>>>
>>>>>> are right about multiple BKs:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BK1, BK2,... and so on. These
>>>>>>
>>>>>> are different persons who
>>>>>>
>>>>>> share some memories with the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BK of the night before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Closest continuer theory works
>>>>>>
>>>>>> well in these duplication
>>>>>>
>>>>>> scenarios, despite the fact
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that people on this list seem
>>>>>>
>>>>>> averse to that theory for some
>>>>>>
>>>>>> undefined reason.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You could say that any suggestion
>>>>>
>>>>> that one of the BK's is a continuation
>>>>>
>>>>> of the original, even when there is
>>>>>
>>>>> only one BK extant at any time,
>>>>>
>>>>> implies dualism.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>> Not on the
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>>>> closest continuer theory. If there is a
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>>>> tie, there is no unique closest continuer.
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>>>> If there is only one continuer, he is
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>>>> necessarily the closest. Dualism is not
>>>>
>>>> required.
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>> But why should the closest continuer be a
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>>> continuation of the person rather than the
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>>> next-closest continuer, unless the soul has a
>>>
>>> preference for it?
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>> Be a dualist if you want
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>> to. But the closest continuer theory is a convention
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>> designed to resolve questions of personal identity in
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>> cases of personal duplication, absent a "soul".
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>> Arbitrary random selections are not as satisfactory.
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> I'm not a dualist. I think there is no metaphysical basis
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> for continuity of identity, it is just a psychological
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> construct.
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> Realistically (sort of) in the duplication of Bruce there will be
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> millions of errors in each copy.  There would be no point in trying
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> to make them any more accurate.  That would certainly be good enough
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> to fool his closest friends and family.  So at the molecular level
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> there will certainly be a unique closest continuer.  But I can't see
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> that it makes any difference.  That's just as arbitrary as
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> denominating the first one to open his door the REAL Bruce.
>

Yes, exactly: unless you say there is a magical soul which always picks the
closest continuer to reside in.
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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